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Apocalypse Homebrew - Emperor's Firestorm Hellhound Squadron

For discussing and developing homebrew datasheets for Apocalypse

Postby killmaimburn » Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:14 pm

Ok heres a quicky I fleshed out a bit. I could do with a good name for the fluff guy at the top (I'm rubbish at imperial fluff, I'm just too naughty).
I also need to know opinions on whether it should become ap3 or not.
What are peoples general impression of it, I can balance it back and forwards. e.g. a negative called "Some problems still to iron out: Due to combined fire for the next turn treat the vehicles as a unit when resolving fire against them."Could be added if you thought that made stuff better.

Do you like the possibilities of buying additionals? - should I remove that, or make it clear that only 3 may combine fire and having more is a redundancy mechanism nuless you take 6 :twisted: , views folks?
Note 3=bigger concept by the loerdofalljoy
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Postby jlong05 » Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:00 pm

killmaimburn wrote:Ok heres a quicky I fleshed out a bit. I could do with a good name for the fluff guy at the top (I'm rubbish at imperial fluff, I'm just too naughty).
I also need to know opinions on whether it should become ap3 or not.
What are peoples general impression of it, I can balance it back and forwards. e.g. a negative called "Some problems still to iron out: Due to combined fire for the next turn treat the vehicles as a unit when resolving fire against them."Could be added if you thought that made stuff better.

Do you like the possibilities of buying additionals? - should I remove that, or make it clear that only 3 may combine fire and having more is a redundancy mechanism unless you take 6 :twisted: , views folks?

Overall I like this. Here are my suggestions.

Up the cost to 150 + models. Do not allow additional models to be purchased. (The upgrades are still experimental, and the Tech Adepts don't want to commit more units.)

When firing, they always use the Apoc template(They have been upgraded after all). The weapon works as normal, however when combining fire(either 2 or all 3) for models caught under additional templates the hits are counted as 1 less AP for each extra template. ALL wounds are calculated as a single attack though so models are still only hit a single time, they just have a stronger hit applied. Does this make sense?

Just my thoughts.
Last edited by jlong05 on Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby killmaimburn » Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:05 pm

ok 150, works for me, as do the dropping of a redundancy (it did seem a tad redundant as I wrote it)
I'm unsure about your system of fire though, if they are always firing has the heavy bolter been removed? (or can they each use that as well as the uber template).
I think creating a unit that can fire at 3 seperate targets with the apoc template (when they don't combine)is a tad much (unless we bounce up the points even more and stripp out the otehr goodies), and when they do combine as a 3some- by your wording does that make it ap2? Or have I got completely the wrong end of your stick, did you mean they only ever can fire combined - the hoses all tied together must stay in coherancy(its just it will carry on working after the first one gets popped?)
Tell me more
(I want to keep the trees burning I think that bit rocks)

Llundhammer- Its pretty darned funky, I like the way you've taken a unit that some people only use as a DSing disposable squad and made them into a prized possession\rarity. How usefull will recon be to a primarily guard army? That effects the points value alot (but I think the ball park area when you take models into account is solid). How many men does a herioc senior officer normally lead, isn't it near on a whole regiment, it rings a bit of schaeffer? I might make him a slightly lessor grade (after all if its the remnants of a whole regiment the blokes you salute are always the first to go down) but thats just me, I don't understand guard mentality.
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Postby jlong05 » Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:08 pm

killmaimburn wrote:ok 150, works for me, as do the dropping of a redundancy (it did seem a tad redundant as I wrote it)
I'm unsure about your system of fire though, if they are always firing has the heavy bolter been removed? (or can they each use that as well as the uber template).
I think creating a unit that can fire at 3 seperate targets with the apoc template (when they don't combine)is a tad much (unless we bounce up the points even more and stripp out the otehr goodies), and when they do combine as a 3some- by your wording does that make it ap2? Or have I got completely the wrong end of your stick, did you mean they only ever can fire combined - the hoses all tied together must stay in coherancy(its just it will carry on working after the first one gets popped?)
Tell me more
(I want to keep the trees burning I think that bit rocks)

Honestly, I don't have my books here with me, being at work. I was mainly giving ideas off the top of my head. I couldn't remember what the standard AP of the Hellhound flamer was. I guess by your post it is normally AP4 then. I guess droppign to AP2 would be a bit much. Let me think more on this when I get home and can look over my books.

With regard to the bolter, I would say that in the event of a 'combined' fire that the extreme heat prevents the bolter from being fired as the munition explosions(remember bolters have exploding rounds) are too dangerous to happen so close to such a high heat area. Not sure how this can be spelled out to sound fluffy cool, just my take on the bolter. Normally, however, the bolter could be fired if the Hellhound was NOT firing at the same unit as another Hellhound.

killmaimburn wrote:Llundhammer- Its pretty darned funky, I like the way you've taken a unit that some people only use as a DSing disposable squad and made them into a prized possession\rarity. How usefull will recon be to a primarily guard army? That effects the points value alot (but I think the ball park area when you take models into account is solid). How many men does a herioc senior officer normally lead, isn't it near on a whole regiment, it rings a bit of schaeffer? I might make him a slightly lessor grade (after all if its the remnants of a whole regiment the blokes you salute are always the first to go down) but thats just me, I don't understand guard mentality.

Hmmm. I was getting the Gaunt feeling here. Gaunt on many occasions has been see leading his Ghosts into infiltrated locations with just a single squad or two. I was thinking this more, but I havn't really read about other 40k IG figures.
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Postby AdrianG » Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:22 pm

Had a quick sqizz at the Hell hound Sheet.
I would agree with jlong05 in that you should not have the option to purchase extra vehicles. I did find the +25pts base cost a bit too low anyway, especially for such a unique vehicle.
AP3 sounds about right to me, though I have no idea of IG Vehicle stats as I've not got the Codex nor played them.
The Heavy Bolters idea is nice, and I'd agree with jlong05 again on the can fire if the unit(s) have selected separate targets.

On the Veteran IG Sheet.
I would question whether or not you could infiltrate the whole platoon?
Again I have no idea of IG "abilities" so this is more of a query really.
Playing Space Wolves kinda narrows the field of vision somewhat :lol:
I did like the Lack of Support entry, very errrrr "fluffy" and limits the possibility of player abuse :D
Anyway, that's my Tuppence h'appeny's worth. Flame away 8O
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Postby jlong05 » Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:48 pm

OK. I had a chance to look over my IG dex and the Inferno is AP4. So subtracting 1 for each additional template would drop to AP2 which I think is a bit overkill. Although, this is Apoc and overkill 'is' the idea right.

How about this:
-------------------------------------------------
'Emperor's Flame' Hellhound Squad

Points 150 + models

Formation; 2 Tech Adepts(Plus Servitors) and 2+(3 max) Hellhounds.

Special Rules:

Emperor's Flame Inferno Cannon: As normal Inferno Cannon but uses the Apocalypse Flame Template

Torch 'Em: Two Hellhounds may choose to combine their actions and fire at the same target using their Emperor's Flame Inferno Cannons. When this is done, the weapons template is placed for both vehicles individually and affected models are identified as a whole. Models found to be 'fully' under BOTH templates are hit by an AP3 weapon. Normal to hit rolls apply and a miss still hits targets on a 4+ as normal.

Hotter than hell: The combined blast is so hot minor terrain may be incinerated by it. Any flammable terrain (such as bushes, fences, woods etc) should be removed from directly under the template. (note large woods only partially under, partially remain as only the area on fire is removed) Being entirely enveloped by such intense sustained flames can distract crew, When firing on armour 13 or higher (and a hit is rolled!) treat this as a 1 on a glance (or a 1 on a super heavy damage table).

Don't shoot that!: During a combined fire action, the on-board heavy bolter for both Helhounds may not be fired. Such actions would expose the ammunition to such heat levels as would likely cause the bolter ammo to explode prematurely causing a catastrophic explosion.

Fresh from the Adeptus Mechanicus: These new models are the latest range the techpriest elite could muster, the cost of this data sheet includes the mandatory upgrades of rough terrain modification, extra armour and smoke.(No other upgrades may be taken).
-------------------------------------------------
Well that is my take. I would love a chance to play test this or hear how it might fare in a real game. Just curious if point wise it is good, or maybe too cheap or costly. What does everyone else think? Is this too complicated for gaming with? I woudl happily play against it. It would be interesting to fight against. Also, by allowing 3 Hellhounds, the combined fire isn't lost with a single unit being destroyed, but even with two units down, the single unit is still good and would continue to benefit from half the special rules indicated.
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Postby killmaimburn » Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:11 am

I like it jlong
So 'negatives' we have increased cost of each hellhound by 38 (ish? when you take off the normal upgrades) and that when they have 16x3" (guess) of ap3 they can't shoot 3 heavy bolters.
But you don't adjust the range? Remember convention seems to dictate that you place the whole template within designated range (thats why i upped it to 36", to fit the template in in combined fire.) I think we still need to tamper a bit with this, if range goes up on the super inferno, then the tanks either have to start costing landraider prices or only use the big template when combined. I think with 3 seperate target apoclypse flamer ap4 templates for 400points we may upset a fair few nid\GEQ CC force players.What do you think?
What do angelwings nids think?

Sheaffer starts with a regiment of a 1000 scum (like conscripts) who go through 1000 battles till there are only 15 or so left who are an elite cadre- naturally shaeffer also survives all of this as well. Thats why I drew the parrellel to Big HQ with remnants.
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Postby Ranhothep » Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:18 am

I like the idea, and alos jlong's presentation of the rules - good editing and reasoning!

Using the big template should however cost more in my oppinion. Or to tone it down a little bit, how about saying that the template isnt placed as usual with a hellhound, but as normal with an infantry model - meaning touching the vehicle. it is also logical that you cannot "project" such an intense heat over long distance.
What I would definitely do however, is to include also track guards, theire a must!
And if you wanna have techpriests included, Id give them some small role to play.
How about this: make the data sheet consist of one tech priest and the hellhound and the tech priest, will be operating the command hellhound (remember to add the usual rules for strike force and desgination of a command vehicle) The techpriest would be counted as a passenger but cant dismount voluntarily, but his presence allows the owning player to force his opponent to reroll a dmg table result to indicate him repairing dmg from inside. how does it sound? I fear it might be allready too complicated, tho it does make sense to me :-)
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Postby killmaimburn » Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:49 am

How about due to the template being so much bigger in its non combined state it is one less than the normal AP (ap5 is almost... AP nothing, or we could even go for ap-) Thhen multiple combined ones could increase its AP by increments as jlongs idea stated (2 = ap4 large apoc flamer, 3= ap3 large apoc flamer)
Ran- to simplify your rules,how about we'd call 1 tech priest, tech priests in the fluff only- bounce up the sheets cost (since there isn't a model involved anymore, emergancy disembarkation from a non transport adds too much IMO) and confer the venerable upgrade to one vehicle? (that keep what you were saying?)
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Postby jlong05 » Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:41 pm

OK, I liked the reduction in AP for the Flamer. Added range but decreased effectiveness seems fair. How about this new update:

-------------------------------------------------
'Emperor's Flame' Hellhound Squad

Points 150 + models

Formation; 2 Tech Adepts(Plus Servitors) and 2+(3 max) Hellhounds.

Special Rules:

Emperor's Flame Inferno Cannon: As normal Inferno Cannon but uses the Apocalypse Flame Template. AP is changed to AP6

Torch 'Em: Two or more Hellhounds may choose to combine their actions and fire at the same target using their Emperor's Flame Inferno Cannons. When this is done, the weapons template is placed for both vehicles individually and affected models are identified as a whole. Models found to be 'fully' under MULTIPLE templates are hit by at a modified AP level. AP is figured by adding the number of templates and subtracting the value from AP6. (IE. 2 Templates are AP5, 3 Templates are AP4). Normal to hit rolls apply and a miss still hits targets on a 4+ as normal.

Hotter than hell: The combined blast is so hot minor terrain may be incinerated by it. Any flammable terrain (such as bushes, fences, woods etc) should be removed from directly under the template. (note large woods only partially under, partially remain as only the area on fire is removed) Being entirely enveloped by such intense sustained flames can distract crew, When firing on armour 13 or higher (and a hit is rolled!) treat this as a 1 on a glance (or a 1 on a super heavy damage table).

Don't shoot that!: During a combined fire action, the on-board heavy bolter for both Helhounds may not be fired. Such actions would expose the ammunition to such heat levels as would likely cause the bolter ammo to explode prematurely causing a catastrophic explosion.

Fresh from the Adeptus Mechanicus: These new models are the latest range the techpriest elite could muster, the cost of this data sheet includes the mandatory upgrades of rough terrain modification, extra armour and smoke.(No other upgrades may be taken).
-------------------------------------------------
OK. Now my questions are;

Should the point cost be increased to 200+ models? And should the AP of the Inferno Cannons be AP- or AP6 standard?

Also if you notice the AP is at best 4 now. Is this still good enough to take the unit? or should it be AP3 for 3 combined, and AP4 for 2 combined shots?

As for the placement of the template, I will have to defer to others here as I honestly never have understood how this works with vehicles. I can draw a picture to explain my thought on the effect by multiple templates, but I will have to do that tonight at home.
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Postby Ljundhammer » Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:55 pm

I like your update Jlong. Given the rediculous power of templates & blasts in apocolypse & a minimum basic cost of in the region of 600ish points for 2 tanks & 2 units, I'd be tempted to make 3 hellhounds AP3 - so I'd go for AP5 on the basic - a basic heavy flamer is AP4 (I think...), I think a longer range, but bigger flame is AP5-tastic. Otherwise, it doesn't seem worth taking.

I've not seen a range on there, I assume you are using the basic 24"? To be honest I think that's about right - there is only so far promethium can fly!

I'd up it to 200 points if you do the above - as I've said before, it's better to start high & work down.

But, congrats - nice datasheet!
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Postby killmaimburn » Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:31 pm

Sounds like a good evolved sheet,
(For Jlong- the last 2 times I've seen rules threads on it as a tank are here http://warseer.com/forums/40k-rules/101 ... rno+cannon
http://warseer.com/forums/40k-rules/972 ... rno+cannon
( i see some familiar faces in em)
Were you 2 interested in making one venerable or similar as ranhotep suggested, or did that make things too complex.
Should I amend the document to encorporate the torch em rule now? (and stick jlongs name on somewhere?)

With the demonhosts, yep a bit of a datablast sorry must have been the onion rings, venerable\holofields is a good option, and you may wish to take into account their concerted effort (1 roll for all rather than individually? might make them cost more as they can then work as a unit (without one either terrifying or DSing whilst the others charge), but if your keen to avoid bookeeping that will cut out 6 dice rolls a turn.)
"it is limited by needing to start within 24" of the =][=" thats the bit I was getting at... just checking that you knew that anywhere was actually anchored to wherever he went. :D
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Postby jlong05 » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:17 pm

killmaimburn wrote:(For Jlong- the last 2 times I've seen rules threads on it as a tank are here http://warseer.com/forums/40k-rules/101 ... rno+cannon
http://warseer.com/forums/40k-rules/972 ... rno+cannon
( i see some familiar faces in em)
8O.. OKAY, I didn't realize that and have always played flamer weapons as from the actual gun not anyway you want to place the template. WOW. OK.. UMM.. Lets see. How about this then.

-------------------------------------------------
'Emperor's Flame' Hellhound Squad

Points 200 + models

Formation; 1 Tech Adepts(Assumed to be inside a Hellhound) and 2 or 3 Hellhound Tanks. 1 Hellhound must be clearly modelled as the 'Command' vehicle. This unit is said to carry the Techpriest and is considered 'Venerable'.

Special Rules:

Emperor's Flame Inferno Cannon: As normal Inferno Cannon but uses the Apocalypse Flame Template. AP is changed to AP5. Range and LOS is as Normal Inferno Cannon(ie. 24").

Torch 'Em: Two or more Hellhounds may choose to combine their actions and fire at the same target using their Emperor's Flame Inferno Cannons. When this is done, the weapons template is placed for all vehicles together (ie. single template placement) and affected models are identified as a whole. Models found to be under the template are hit by at a modified AP level. AP is figured by adding the number of templates and subtracting the value from AP5. (IE. 2 Hellhounds are AP4, 3 Hellhounds are AP3). Normal to hit rolls apply and a miss still hits targets on a 4+ as normal.

Hotter than hell: The combined blast is so hot minor terrain may be incinerated by it. Any flammable terrain (such as bushes, fences, woods etc) should be removed from directly under the template. (note large woods only partially under, partially remain as only the area on fire is removed) Being entirely enveloped by such intense sustained flames can distract crew, When firing on armour 13 or higher (and a hit is rolled!) treat this as a 1 on a glance (or a 1 on a super heavy damage table).

Don't shoot that!: During a combined fire action, the on-board heavy bolter for both Helhounds may not be fired. Such actions would expose the ammunition to such heat levels as would likely cause the bolter ammo to explode prematurely causing a catastrophic explosion.

Fresh from the Adeptus Mechanicus: These new models are the latest range the techpriest elite could muster, the cost of this data sheet includes the mandatory upgrades of rough terrain modification, extra armour and smoke.(No other upgrades may be taken).
-------------------------------------------------

killmaimburn wrote:Were you 2 interested in making one venerable or similar as ranhotep suggested, or did that make things too complex.
Should I amend the document to encorporate the torch em rule now? (and stick jlongs name on somewhere?)
Updated in above suggested profile. As for credit, it was your idea, I was just helping out.

Hope you like the updated changes. I think this probably captures your intent the best.

Also I have a followup FAQ question on this unit now. Will the Hotter than Hell rule now allow the flamer the affect Living Metal units such as the Monolith and or Pylon? I would say it shouldn't, but the rule does now allow for that. Can LordMalek weigh in on this for what he thinks it should affect?
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:27 pm

jlong05 wrote:Emperor's Flame Inferno Cannon: As normal Inferno Cannon but uses the Apocalypse Flame Template. AP is changed to AP5. Range and LOS is as Normal Inferno Cannon(ie. 24").

getting the whole 16.5" Template within 24" and completly within LOS is going to be pretty tough, isnt it? you dont want to make the Template bigger only to lead to more cases when you cant actually shoot at all...

jlong05 wrote:Also I have a followup FAQ question on this unit now. Will the Hotter than Hell rule now allow the flamer the affect Living Metal units such as the Monolith and or Pylon? I would say it shouldn't, but the rule does now allow for that. Can LordMalek weigh in on this for what he thinks it should affect?

im just about to go out - il look into this when i get back. :)

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Postby killmaimburn » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:32 pm

As a 1 on the table it won't effect the monolith just as a 1 on the table won't effect something with demonic possession.(I believe both codexs have rules stating this) Its to do with the crew being scared of the new red and sooty paint job. It won't actually hurt a titan, is that ok (that was my vague intent)

For Ljundhammer
Sorry I trumped (I'll repost when it makes sense)
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