Age of Strife

(Rewritten 27/10/07)
OK I figured I'd tidy up by adding a contents post so stuff didn't get swamped by 'hot' topics currently, we've got:

Houserules - large work in progress which I'll collate latest points after contents here, still a work in progress- nothing set in stone, just a collation of points where we currently stand (ish)

A tzeentch infantry heavydatasheet at post 23 (finished, in my mind, I also submitted it to the comp they are having over in warseer general)

Combined Hellhounds one (has many variants as we chew over all the possibilities) I think we are currently tweaking the one listed in post 70 (latest variant) and jlong is rewording the torch em rule.(I think we have been at 95% for 3 pages but I've found it fun working out each time a bubble pops up)

I scribbled out some ideas for a warhound titan primarch (5% done, still just a pub concept) post 41, I'm letting it settle until I know more about titans.

Ljundhammer put up one on IG veteran platoons (post 30) Seemed to meet with all round approval.

A demonhost (for demonhunters) datasheet at post44 but has been tweaked a fair bit, I think its now near on 80-90% done if we work out how\if they form a unit of sorts. (my last comment on it was post 69)

A penitent engines sheet at post 51 which I think we all kind of put on hold argueing over the fire.(and kb sizes) So maybe we re approach this one after finishing the hellhound and demonhost ones.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
houserules after debate (modified through discourse)


1) Special abilities unique to or effecting only members of an army from a specific codex, stay only effecting members of that codex (e.g. no nid pheromone trail allowing landraiders to turn up, no cannonness making gaunts near fearless etc)
*RAW as per page 20 of apocolypse

2) Superheavies may transport creatures from various different species reliant on their capacity and load(see p198 Wink ), in the upcoming game, will you both agree to the use of codex specific non dedicated transports (non super heavy)by other races within your army, or will you both agree to keep codex specific transport options only available for members of that codex, note this should be agreed in early pregame discussion.
*Kind of against the RAI of p198, but it helps for a friendly agreement in advance.

3) Standard games (near me) will be 3000-4500 points a side (larger (in our lot)becomes silly and puts pressure on those who have less to field unefficiently,)Standard time up to5 hours max otherwise its just a chore.Arranged at least 7 days in advance,(declare which datasheets we’ll use at that time (and point 2), that will help with agreement over scratch home built ones(and scratch home built units) but also would stop nasty surprises (e.g. maelstrom of gore stops all other races fleeting- I’ve already said I’m not going to use that part of it, but that’s one of those things that should be discussed long before the kick off)
*Personal rule on reveal.(any differences of opinion on p117 traitor formations and using dtatasheets in different armies can be out the way before the battle begins)

4) Codexs will normally be the current printing of the current edition (so I’ll have to use the new chaos, booo) unless explicitly agreed to by the opponent.(no Mr 6- No 2nd ed elder….evar evar evar)But squats are ok (teehee)

5) Some strategic assets may be reviewed due to ingame un funnyness (e.g. I’m already hearing about fights breaking out when ‘flank attack’ is used… and I’ve got my eye on it, if it causes trouble we’ll remove it from the deck)

6) Although No FOC limits apply, I would suggest capping the number of armies\chapters\ differing forces allied on a single side (in the 4500 and under bracket) to 3 armies, to prevent confusion and codex juggling and speed up general game play.

Speed up rules currently
Tim has suggested (and had positive response from)
"
Fleet should be rolled as the unit moves in the Movement phase, and added to the normal move. it takes long enough to move massed infantry formations - it doesnt help if you have to pick each model up twice.

if Jetpack/Eldar Jetbike owners decide they dont want to shoot that turn with such models, then they could use their bonus move in the Movement Phase too (adding it to the normal movement allowance), in order to save time.
"
I added using turbo boost markers to signify jetbikes had done its stuff for the following phases in advance.(although this is actually kind of dumb as implies they'll get an invulnerable save.But the idea of marking it is sound.

there are still a few suggestions on p37 we haven't brought up or discussed yet and a few more that we probably could string together.

IJW has an interesting sheet over at warseer with some nice markers ready for apocolypse.
http://warseer.com/forums/rules-develop ... weaks.html

Still struggling with the 'problem' of traits and how will people deal with two detachments of smurfs with different traits (or 1 traited smurf with any other force), e.g. 1 company says no drop pods no heavy tanks, 1 says no termies and no allies- meaning in 3000 they still have everything…but since we'll be taking nids and necrons, wulfen and chaos etc I think i had ants in my pants and I just have to let that bit wash over me.Hopefully limiting to only 3 forces will curb a little of it.

#1 sounds fine, and it's already borne out by some of the datasheets (like the Legion of the Damned special rules only affecting LotD units).

#2 sounds like a good idea too.

#3 I guess is fine for your house, but at mine 4500 is too limiting

#4 makes sense too

#5 is a good idea too - flank attack is apparently over powered

#6 is going to require a lot of thought

killmaimburn wrote:2) Transports including non dedicated ones, can only be taken\used by the members of that codex . (So no using your enemies monoliths to teleport through (silly raw) (no gaunts in a undedicated landraider.)

i thught transporting other armies' untis was RaI? im sure i read an example of Carnfixes being let loose from cages in Ork Vehicles...

~ Tim

oh 2 probably shoudn't apply to orks, they stick all kinds of crap all over the place, they are your mate who borrows your car for a quick trip to pick up milk from tescos and when he returns there are chicken feathers and straw in the fender and a full pizza face down on the passenger seat.
We'll see what they do with their new codex re looting etc, but I'd certainly go easy on the boys until then.

6- is a pickle, I want to not confuse folks, don't want all forces to be uber but also do (cos its apocolypse). Is the first bit the bit that concerns you? If so does 800 points, or a mandatory hq and 2 troops choices sound better?
With the second bit- yeah its a pickle, I want my apothecaries and clensing fire, but don't want to be ruled out of taking tanks in apocolypse

killmaimburn wrote:oh 2 probably shoudn't apply to orks, they stick all kinds of crap all over the place, they are your mate who borrows your car for a quick trip to pick up milk from tescos and when he returns there are chicken feathers and straw in the fender and a full pizza face down on the passenger seat.
We'll see what they do with their new codex re looting etc, but I'd certainly go easy on the boys until then.

its not just Orks - i just found the reference: p198, Super Heavy Transport Chart, last 2 paras.

"This may lead to bizzare (but very cool!) situations.."

oh and back to houserules - heres a suggestion for big games:
Fleet should be rolled as the unit moves in the Movement phase, and added to the normal move. it takes long enough to move massed infantry formations - it doesnt help if you have to pick each model up twice.

if Jetpack/Eldar Jetbike owners decide they dont want to shoot that turn with such models, then they could use their bonus move in the Movement Phase too (adding it to the normal movement allowance), in order to save time.

hows that?

~ Tim

Ok , so super heavies, all is ok , if a thunderhawk can drop off a load of demon princes, necrons etc should be ok etc etc.
But does that invalidate my point re normal transports, Struggling for good examples.. ok tau only have a unit or two that can take a transport option, and no restrictions apart from that some units don't have an inbuilt transport option. Chaos' undedicated transport (landraider) says it can't transport oblits or demons for fear of letting the seats get all sticky (thats all it says), does the houserule stand up for not letting broadsides\kroot sit in a landraider (only a super heavy imperial tranpsport) If you buy something big enough.. (a mobile prison cell etc) you should use it as such.
How does that sound (I'm trying to read the book whilst posting and grabbing between 15 sites today, sorry for the bad grammer etc- should be quite constructive)

killmaimburn wrote:Ok , so super heavies, all is ok , ...
But does that invalidate my point re normal transports,

those last 2 paras are talking about transports in general, not just Superheavies.

killmaimburn wrote:Chaos' undedicated transport (landraider) says it can't transport oblits or demons for fear of letting the seats get all sticky (thats all it says), does the houserule stand up for not letting broadsides\kroot sit in a landraider (only a super heavy imperial tranpsport) If you buy something big enough.. (a mobile prison cell etc) you should use it as such.
How does that sound

i agree that there should be some limits (maybe we should ask ourselves "if my army had had the ability to take this allied unit when the codex was written, would the rules for this transport have prevented it from carrying them?" - i.e. do the RaW only allow it because it was never considered at the time the codex was written?) - an all out blanket ban does go against RaI though (IMO).

~ Tim

Ok so #2 becomes worded more as a question form
"Superheavies may transport creatures from various different species reliant on their capacity and load(see p198 ), in the upcoming game, will you both agree to the use of codex specific transports (non super heavy)by other races within your army, or will you both agree to keep codex specific transport options only available for members of that codex, note this should be agreed well before the game begins”
I appreciate fun levels, I do kind of fear what GW calls bizarre (but also am content that when outside the box and uncomprehendable is 2 HQ with a lash, that they haven’t seen as much 40k as I have), this allows both players to agree one way or another, (hopefully my question doesn't show too much bias )
more acceptable?
KMB

Anyone willing to improve point 6?
just noticed point one is an actual rule on page 20- thats handy

good points to think about KMB.

Ill start with the datasheets. The ideas are good, but with 9 being Tzeentch's sacred number I would definitely say you need to have squads of 9 for the powers to work. 9 to begin with and at least 5 members remaining. Furthermore I would try to somehow incorporate the necron teleport thingy that has been introduced some time ago through WD to Rubric Marines. It required some HQ models (were it chosedn of Ahriman or something)

To the house rules:

First of all lets keep in mind you dont have FOC, so you shouldnt take two trait armies, you should take one with no size restriction or 99 slots in each FOC category if you prefer
I agree that special rules should be aplicable only to the parent army and its "regular" legal allies. So the book of St.Lucius as an example could work on guardsmen as the sister can be included in a normal IG army. Or another example, Lysander could allow GK terminators to teleport with him, as this again can be combined in a normal 40k game as well.
Transporters should be able to carry only models of the same race. So no genestealers in land raiders, but only marines and sisters and storm troopers/guardsmen.
I dont think we will have limits for players, they should simply have a coherent force and we will put enough players together to reach the overall game limit. I wouldnt prolly allow armies smaller than 1500 points. Nothing like just a unit of destroyers or 2 carnifexes on their own.
I wouldnt know about the strategic assets or data sheets, as I want to see them in action first. Some ppl allready whine about flank attack, but from what I have read, its no biggie to counter it or just make worthless by a good set up.
I think it would also be a good idea to re-think victory conditions. just objectives grabbing isnt very good, as it makes fast vehicles, especially skimmers (coughfalcon cough) very very nasty.

A finalt thought: Im starting to believe more and more that the person going second is not at an disadvantage at all, quite the opposite. You can set up seeing what your opponent allready has and where - BIG advantage. you get to use infiltrators - BIG advantage and his reserves arrive first so you can get them with your reserves or deploy according to need. With reserves its often FIFO (first in first out) So maybe it will be necessary to find an alternative way to determine who gets to set up first and gets the first turn...

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:

oh and back to houserules - heres a suggestion for big games:
Fleet should be rolled as the unit moves in the Movement phase, and added to the normal move. it takes long enough to move massed infantry formations - it doesnt help if you have to pick each model up twice.

~ Tim

As a tyranid player, I do this anyway. Nobody has objected so far. It would make things alot quicker in big games. (120 gaunts anyone?)

Ranhothep wrote:First of all lets keep in mind you dont have FOC, so you shouldnt take two trait armies, you should take one with no size restriction or 99 slots in each FOC category if you prefer

I dont think we will have limits for players, they should simply have a coherent force and we will put enough players together to reach the overall game limit. I wouldnt prolly allow armies smaller than 1500 points. Nothing like just a unit of destroyers or 2 carnifexes on their own.

Your 1st+2nd paragraph would be at slight odds to my purposes.your first would say that a person cannot field Iron hands 1850 and white scars 1500, (where as salamanders and chaos, or tau and nids would be ok?) you see why its such a pickle of a topic.
I'm taking on the datasheet idea (WIP evolving etc ) Victory conditions bit is a bit beyond me, at the mo, but do carry on chewing it over in the thread.

Angelwing wrote:As a tyranid player, I do this anyway. Nobody has objected so far. It would make things alot quicker in big games. (120 gaunts anyone?)

When I used khorne beserkers I'd do that - because the direction and distance is compulsory(and its described IIRC as being the end of movement), however in case of non compulsory distance and direction (I in 1500s) prefer you do them seperately, otherwise you know whether to head for that piece of cover far left or safer bit on right (also some of my worse opponents try to smuggle in that they didn't fleet and so fleet twice if they take long enough about it)you'll never get caught short by a bad roll. In apocolypse I think thats a darned fine idea though.

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:if Jetpack/Eldar Jetbike owners decide they dont want to shoot that turn with such models, then they could use their bonus move in the Movement Phase too (adding it to the normal movement allowance), in order to save time.

Good idea, have to have a special marker made up to remind them (I might just use teh turboboosted blip)
Great comments folks keep em coming.
Note that as well as AOS having some great blips, which I've used in most games over 1500 for a year or so now, IJW has made some for apocolypse and made some bits that speed up play found here
http://warseer.com/forums/rules-develop ... weaks.html
(I hope he doesn't mind me bigging him up)

Ok, you caught me on the Salamanders/Iron Hands. I just imagined the same smurfs in two detachments with maxed out traits played by one player. So to rephrase, Id say one trait set per individual army (so salamanders would have different traits than Iron Hands, even if played by the same player) I would just keep the 1500 points limit, or even raise it a little bit maybe.

As to the data sheets, its difficult to comment on them and the special rules, as you can hardly guess their effect on a game, without having it seen in action. something might turn out much more devastating than on paper and some things are not as good as imagined in the end

killmaimburn wrote:6) Although No FOC limits apply, I would suggest that just taking 1 unit from 1 codex and 1 unit from another codex is a tad wrong.(and confusing to those who have memorised less codexs) So I’d suggest that if your using something from a chapter\traited army different to the rest of your force, it must be no less than 1000points as a force, (So I’m not taking 2850 points of smurfs and a demon prince- Frogs not taking 2500 points of elder and then a single squad of necron destroyers etc,).
What do people reckon to that one (should it include normal allies? E.g. demonworld\chaos smurf\witchunters, or should they be given dispensation and just have to follow normal(codex) ally rules?)
And how will people deal with two detachments of smurfs with different traits (or 1 traited smurf with any other force),, e.g. 1 company says no drop pods no heavy tanks, 1 says no termies and no allies- meaning in 3000 they still have everything…should some negative traits be made force wide? Take 3 minor traits that effect the entire side?
Opinions… (I have a vested interest so don’t really know what to suggest).
.

Hmmm.. I am not sure I agree with this. The whole idea behind Apocalypse is being able to play everything and anything you have lying about. I think it would be nice as a general rule to have a point limit, but 1000 points seems a bit high to me. I think it should be acceptable to play any attached unit that is at MIN of combat patrol size(400 pts) or is a special 'datasheet' detachment. So it would be acceptable to field a SM army and include any data-sheet detachments, or even combat patrols of other units you may have. If there was ever a question for rules(You should have your codex with you anyways) you can just provide the relevant information for your 'special detachment'.

Just my thoughts, but I like the thought of including a squad of GK Termies, or a special kill team of marines with my IG army. etc.

jlong05 wrote:Just my thoughts, but I like the thought of including a squad of GK Termies, or a special kill team of marines with my IG army. etc.

but you can allways do this, you dont even need apocalypse for that. its perfectly valid. its fluffy and makes sense and everything. Would you however, say the same if someone fielded a death company and an uberequipped Dark Eldar lord along with his Imperial Guard?

The bottom line is, its pointless to argue about house rules. Everyone will have their own and it would be rare and rather masochystical to play apocalypse with complete strangers and with your buddies you will simply agree on a house rule that suits all of you best

Traitor formations: I understand it, that you can buy every datasheet, but you have to be able to purchase the relevant units legally. So you can buy the linebreaker data sheet as the vehicles are in your codex as well. you can buy a baneblade because it is a data sheet on its own. but you cant buy land speeders, so the data sheet for whirlwinds and speeders wont help you. similarly chaos couldnt use the assassins data sheet as they cant normally include them in an army