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1500 pts vs Thaiss on Monday night

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:49 pm
by mattjgilbert
OK... monday gaming next week sees Wolflord Havoc and Martyn sqauring up (Renegade Militia vs Dark Angels) and Thaiss against me. Thaiss will be taking Orks. My nids are NOWHERE NEAR being ready for such an outing which leaves me with either Necron or Ultramarine forces. Not having taken the marines out for a while (and very rarely winning with them when I do) I thought I'd take a stab at using them.

Now I normally try to take "unf" and "weaker" (non-powergamey) armies but seeing the number of games the ork horde has won to date I'm thinking of going for cheesy all out firepower. I'm limited of course to the models I have painted up so far. These you can see here: http://www.thedragonstears.com/gallery. ... %20marines

On top of that there is that predator I'm painting up ( http://www.ageofstrife.com/modules.php? ... =8467#8467 ) which I can use and I'm thinking of putting together the vindicator this weekend... I'll get away with one game of it being unpainted before someone complains (or I feel guilty).

So, 5 minutes in Army Builder last night gave me this:

Vindicator
- extra armour and smoke
133 points

Predator Destructor
- extra armour and smoke and hvy bolters
118 points

8 man Devastator Squad
- HB, LC, ML, PC
225 points

5 man tac squad
- plas gun, hvy bolter
90 points

5 man tac squad
- plas gun, ML
95 points

Dreadnought
- Hvy Flamer, extra armour, smoke
123 points

Dreadnought
- ML, TL-LC, extra armour, smoke
143 points

Master
- Adamantine mantle, bionics, MC wpn, Term Arm, Lightning Claw, storm bolter
- 4 man Termie cmnd squad
- 2 assault cannons, serg with auspex
387 points

6 man assault squad (inc vet serg)
- 2 flamers
- serg with BP, PF, auspex, bionics and combat shield
186 points

Total = 1500 points


Now I'm looking at that list and I'm panicking about the lack of troops and the 2 minimum troop choices really grate (I usually try for 3 or 4 decent size troop choices) but I thought I'd see what happened. The auspex with the command squad is in case of infiltrating kommandos but the one with the assault squad is simply to fill up a couple of points (they will not have the rage to shot with their flamers!)...


Great/good/bad/awful/really really bad but take it anyway and give us all a laugh with how terrible it was?


[EDIT]We REALLY have to get new photos done for the club site. I'm not sure who those people are but they really can't be us. I don't think I ever really looked like that...maybe when I was about 14. Alex's photo is especially bad.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 2:23 pm
by estarriol
Drop the Devastator squad to 6 and make the 2 tac squads 6.

Put the 2 ML's in the Dev squad and the HB's in the tacs.

I think your light on numbers, the main advantage of Marines is there basic troopers.

maybe drop the dev squad down to a tac squad.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 2:27 pm
by killmaimburn
I agree with estarriol that dev squad looks noob like.8O (config not paint job)
I'm working on swapping aronud your command structure a bit, but its a bit fiddly with the points.. I figure if your going low man count having the termies as just elites (with auspex) having a reclusiarch JP bp, who can join assualt squad for mass removal , or go off as a one man, thing provides more flexibility.(and makes the main folks who'd beneift from ROB fearless anyway) but it doesn't add up give me an hour or so I'll post my mod. :D
Ditch the bionics (silly stuff, if you want to save stuff take purity above all).

EDIT, is it my imagination or if he does those 2 changes can he fit in a 1)whole other 6 man heavy bolter plas?
2) How about adding your heavy bolter speeder and a 5 man scout squad (bolters (they look like pistols but actually they've been modified to fire with a longer range) with a heavy bolter) keep them tucked up safe near you, they just go next to the weaker flank after deployment.. might need to drop EA off the vindie for that though :cry:

To help us decide whats the game going to be like? you play alpha beta and gamma, standard missions. So we need to take account of escalation and concealment and stuff? What kind of build orky thing is it, all bike doom, side swiping CC crew, boys in trucks stuffs? (not that I've been ablet to face off against new orks yet but it might help us figure it out - since you seem to be wanting to tailor a bit)

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:54 pm
by mattjgilbert
estarriol wrote:Drop the Devastator squad to 6 and make the 2 tac squads 6.
You think they still have enough "wounds" with only 6?

estarriol wrote:I think your light on numbers, the main advantage of Marines is there basic troopers.
I'm waaay light on numbers. The orks are pretty filthy though and I figured firepower was better than a few more guys who would make no difference.

estarriol wrote:maybe drop the dev squad down to a tac squad.
And lose the firepower? An ork unit WILL trash a marine tactical squad in CC. And the WILL get into CC unless I can blast enough holes in them first...


Dev squad may look noob but that's because those are the dev models I have painted up! Plus I couldn't remember exactly what I had available ;)

I can't take any more HBs in the tac squads as I only have the 1 tactical HB guy painted up (from memory...I'll check.

I'm kinda fed up with the JP chaplain but I'll consider it. Last game the termies caused the orks big issues.

Game will be standard missions but will be random as to which one and game level will be random. As to the Ork composition, Thaiss can pick what he likes as he has most stuff. I have NO idea what he will be picking as none of us ever have static lists. Well, rarely anyway beyond about 3 games if you're lucky... Not an all bike army though (only got one maybe two units, and only two trucks. Could take up to 9 kans though if he wanted. 20 strong unit of storm boyz is likely and once they hit, most armies are tied up or in real trouble...

[EDIT]Looks like I have 2 dev HB guys and 1 tac one to juggle with.
[EDIT 2]Actually, with marines, I probably am fairly noobish. That's a result of my infreqent use of them and also not having the choices available to be to use that I would like :(

If you were going to design a "good" list to take on Orks using what I have available, what would you take (starting from scratch)?

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 5:57 pm
by killmaimburn
mattjgilbert wrote:You think they still have enough "wounds" with only 6?
Your only protecting 2 weapons if you follow his tip, the rule of thumb is 1 meat shield per weapon (how much attention they'll draw by how much pain they can dish out, the variants of this are when you go for 4 weapons in a 6man squad.. but you need a wealth of distractions and firemagnets to make sure the squad don't just go poof then, and its very open to sacrificeing)
mattjgilbert wrote:I'm waaay light on numbers. The orks are pretty filthy though and I figured firepower was better than a few more guys who would make no difference.
your both right, at this point a heavy bolter will do more for you than an extra marine

estarriol wrote:maybe drop the dev squad down to a tac squad.
mattjgilbert wrote:And lose the firepower? An ork unit WILL trash a marine tactical squad in CC. And the WILL get into CC unless I can blast enough holes in them first...

You can drop to a tactical squad and still keep the fire power, just keep the gun ratio up.

mattjgilbert wrote:I can't take any more HBs in the tac squads as I only have the 1 tactical HB guy painted up (from memory...I'll check.

If your friends really won't let you counts as a tactical shoulder pad as a devastater squad decal...I think you might get a bit upset when you see my army. you have the model, he just suggesting moving the bloke around because a devastator squad of mixed weapons is jack of all trade absolutely master of none, all the time at least 1 weapon will fire in a non optimal config.(they sell them like that...and its the first ouch a noob feels buying new stuff from GW..I've had to donate some krak laucnhers to a few noobs mid game)
mattjgilbert wrote:I'm kinda fed up with the JP chaplain but I'll consider it. Last game the termies caused the orks big issues.

Look again, with this config you have the same number of models in termie armour, its just your huge point sink guy is now a basic termie and the points saved from the swap arounds above give you the chaplin and the extra 2 squads.


mattjgilbert wrote:If you were going to design a "good" list to take on Orks using what I have available, what would you take (starting from scratch)?

really? well heavy bolters where you can, in tactical squads is proportionately the cheapest (I've got a diagram I made once for weapon layouts, when I'm back home I'sll post it) I probably wouldn't take the dreads- Or maybe I would take 3 in most basic and cheap config, I guess the vindie all depends how you use it...keeping it back and then surging forwards for a queen sacrfice for their king (av14) probably good. Or keeping it near the front as area denial ok, as long as he doesn't have too much high str weaponry to just make it redundant turn 1.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:34 pm
by mattjgilbert
The Orks (so far from what Thaiss has used) seem to suffer against heavy tanks. They make up for it in sheer numbers, reslience and firepower though. Once they have you in combat you are pretty screwed. I've actually yet to see a real downside to the Ork army.

If your friends really won't let you counts as a tactical shoulder pad as a devastater squad decal...I think you might get a bit upset when you see my army.
My friends probably would care a bit. I care though, sadly enough. Maybe I'll relent this once (knowing I'll make up the right models eventully from the pile).

I'd love to be able to take 3 dev squads with 4 HBs each :D

I'll knock a new list together.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:53 pm
by mattjgilbert
OK how's this? Extra tac squad, more HBs, more marines, more termies which the orks seem to have trouble with, the jp chaplain and another tank with ork flattening pie-plates.


Vindicator (ea, smoke) 133
Pred Desctructor (ea, smoke) 118
6 man Tac squad (HB, plas) 105
6 man Tac squad (HB, plas) 105
6 man Tac squad (HB, plas) 105
Terminator squad (2 AC, auspex) 242
Terminator squad (1 AC, 1 HF, auspex) 232
6 man assault squad (2 flamers, serg with TH, bp/pf) 174
Reclusiarch (jp, TH) 121
Land Speeder (HB, AC) 80
Whirlwind 85

1500 points on the nose (again!)


I'm begrudgingly compromising principles here by fielding models in the wrong units and TWO(!!) unpainted models. I'll also need to sort out the AC for the landspeeder... I'll go and do that right now as I need to do it anyway*

How's that list? Any better? It feels better and I'm happier with more marines now.


*oh yeah...and build the vindicator :|

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:32 pm
by estarriol
Aaaaaah all my Marines tend to live in 6's unless they are assult, as I have everyone riding in Razors.

I have never felt that 6 was weak, but then I field a lot of 6 man units.

If you can beg/bporrpw a rhino or 2 or a razorback or 2, givem twin linked heavy bolters and your anti Ork raises dramatically.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:10 am
by mattjgilbert
I have the rhinos/razor backs if needed (well two of them anyway right now).

BTW - the vindicator is now built and the AC for the landspeeder is magnetized and painted up :D. 2.5 hours work... slowly chipping away at the marine pile...

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:01 am
by killmaimburn
Not a personal fan of razors,(fire support compare to pred, transport compare to rhino). but that would be a big side track.
I like the inclusion of the tornado (nothing rings of "I'm trying to beat you" more than a tornado and a bit of 5 man lascannon age.
Somewhere along the line I think you lost your anti tank abit.
Whirlwind,is funny and cheap but if its escaltion it won't be doing anything before (at the EARLIEST turn 3) which is a massive downside for the poor fiends cos I love em.
If your relying on asspam for anti armour, you don't have enough.Although you do have the vindies still :)
I think some mid point between your 2 lists is a good place to be.
mattjgilbert wrote:I'd love to be able to take 3 dev squads with 4 HBs each :D.
Someone in the codex demons thread was saying .. but we'll be butchered by grey knights at tourney.. My response was
that nids and demons (and tzeentch) fear this above all else.

Master (maybe a bolter) 76 points
3x5man lascanon tactical squad (270)
3x6man devastator squad with 4 heavy bolters (450)
3x1 tornado (240)
Leaves you 470 ish points to trait them or add in more of the same or other stuff to conceal it as fluffy.
Just that 1000 points pumps out 60 St5 or greater shots from a starting position of 36"s away or greater.
If someone manages to get close to charging and is left in the open you should be able to hurl out another 38 bolter shots to put down the swarm. And remember thats with 500points left (you could leave it off and go for VP denial, or you could actually take some counter assualt. etc etc)
Las Plas has its place(deathwing :)), but massed fire is horrific (and I don't play GEQ) whats the good in a 3+ armour save when the enemy has just hit you with 3 times as many bullets as one that would have taken away your save, your still going to fail 1 in 3 of those dice rolls.And this way you can snipe the other guys good stuff off too.For more examples there was a tactica on making tof lists

But I don't know orksies, so I wouldn't care to guess swarm or other.

I still umm and arr about heavy bolters in devastator squads
heavy bolter into dev squad=3x the cost of it being in a tactical squad
missiles+ multi melta 2x the cost
plasma cannon 1.75x the cost bump
lascannon 2.5x the cost bump.
Its still basically an anti infantry weapon (fitting in a tactical squad). It goes up the most of all weapons (although of course this is too reflect the idea the 4 H bolters in a 10 man dev squad puts out more shots than any other unit smurfs can have) Seems to cause a bit of over kill.
Lascannons fit best at the moment in tactical squads because of their hidden nature (which 4th ed tried to get rid of with TOF in 4th ed and seems to going further in 5th ed) and because if your firing 4 lascannons at something there will be some form of waste.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:27 am
by estarriol
I admit I am biased, but I have always had good success from Razors.

Not happy that my favourite flavour is removed from the latest codex though las/plas that is.

2 dev squads of HB's and one of ML's is nasty, as you say LC's in tacticals.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 7:58 pm
by mattjgilbert
I don't have enough HBs or landspeeders for that list KMB! I also wouldn't trait ultras ;)

re: Escalation - chances are it will be gamma as our random roll is:

1 - alpha
2-5 - gamma
6 - omega

re: anti-tank, there are no heavy ork tanks to worry about. Around the AV11 mark is about normal but the buk of the force will me infantry/non-vehicle so more low powered shots is best I think. With most ork units between 20 and 30 in size, you need mass firepower to reduce the stupid number of attacks and swamping you'll receive in CC. The mob rule means that you will not be making them roll to fall back unless you can kill 10+ models before they get to you.

Having said that - Wolflord Havoc has taken his militia against the orks twice now and sat there firing a stupid amount of firepower into the ork lines and still got wiped out to a man, the orks barely noticing the casualties. The orks can also (although it's not their forte) fire back with to good effect (lootas for example will dish out 10 to 30 S7 shots per turn). BS 2 means a whole lot less when you have 2 or 3 times the guns!

I've had mixed success with razorbacks in the past but perhaps I've not used them enough/correctly.

Let's see how it goes shall we? I can always suggest a rematch if it fails with Thaiss keeping the same army and me tweaking the list.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:18 am
by mattjgilbert
Well well well. A massively convincing result for the marines. Thanks guys for making me revise my no-thought-given list :D

I lost:
Half the assault squad
5 tactical marines (across 2 squads)
All the terminators
The predator

Thaiss lost (and gave up in turn 5):
Ghazghkull
2 of 3 nobz in megarmour
A unit of tank busters (20)
A unit of boys (20 I think)
20 storm boyz
A few lootas (would have wiped them out in turn 6)
Half or more of a unit of ard boyz (started at 20 I think)

I won the roll for table edge and for first turn which helped A LOT. I failed to whittle down the stormboyz before they got to me but they had a terrible round of combat and only killed 3 marines - the next round saw a counter charge by the chaplain and remaining assault marines (rest killed by Gaz) which finished them off. Deployment helped me out as the storm boys were isolated on a flank and spent too long getting to me. Getting to me before they did would have caused a headache.

Pred only died to a lucky glacning 6 but but then it didn't metter.

Orks... gaz and the nobz are probably not worth it in a 1500 point game. More infantry and killer kans would have caused me more problems I think. Gaz munched termies and some assault marines but I think was probably not really worth it without support.

I'll get the pred painted up and completed and then decide which of the other two to do next... whadda you reckon? Whirlwind or vindicator?

PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:09 am
by killmaimburn
Glad to here it :D
Just so 's you don't think I'm invincible, and understand how I can still whine about power levels. i was dead by the end of turn 2 last night against 2 fully equipped clown patrols (220 point falcons 6 harlies twice..) A bunch of banhsees, a load or tornados as seperate units with ap2 weaponry all over the place. I'd said to Mr 6 (whose had a break for a few months) I wanted to play something flavourfull and funm he said "surprise". The surprise being it was exactly the same list I have been playing most of last year. Ljundhammer was also spanked mightily by it (but as always did it a bit more gracefully than I), then we played each other (with some uber fluffyness and called it a draw at 10.30)
I hate pointy ears...roll on 5th ed.

Oh and with your 1s and 6s rules, I'd say the whirlwind, (its funny and the cheapest thing in the game bar reclusiarchs and minned scout offences...well almost) Vindie is brutal, and going through a phase of good, but for testing and throwing around go with the whirlwing first.. it requires more training and practice.The vindie is area denial (thats it you are now jedi black belt of the vindi)

PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:24 am
by LordMalekTheRedKnight
killmaimburn wrote:2 fully equipped clown patrols (220 point falcons 6 harlies twice..) A bunch of banhsees, a load or tornados as seperate units with ap2 weaponry all over the place.

Tornados? :?:

~ Tim