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1500pts IG (yes KMB, 1500pts!)

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1500pts IG (yes KMB, 1500pts!)

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:27 pm

Hey all :)

the 40K front at my local club has been pretty quiet lately: there are only a handful of players, most split their gaming time between lots of different systems, and some are tourney players who stick to 1500 pts. while ive had lots of fun playing other games (LotR Ancients, DBA, AK47) alongside the odd CP game of 40K, i thought i would broaden my horizons just a little and see if i can get a game in against one of the tourney players - which means i need a 1500pt list (8O).

so i dug out all my IG, both my current force and my older stuff, and worked out a list. i wanted it to be as different as possible to my last 1500 pt list (competitive gunline that got boring), and thought it would be fun to try out some of the units/models that havent seen action since early 3rd ed (i.e. before the current codex). it doesnt have to be fluffy or particularly competitive, it just has to be interesting and fun. I was restricted by what i had available, and had to juggle models to make up units with the right weapons/number of troopers.

with that in mind, here is the list for your perusal (please feel free to check my totals):

EDIT: this list is my first draft - the most up to date list can be seen in post #28. cheers!

Code: Select all
IG 1496 pts Army List

KP: 16
Model count: 4 Vehicles + 72 Infantry (86 Wounds)
Scoring Units: 4

Doctrines:
Ogryn
Ratlings
Drop Troops
Close Order Drill


HQ - Command Platoon [266 pts]:

Command Squad (106 pts)
JO: Plasma Pistol, Power Weapon
Vet: Medi Pack, Plasma Pistol
3 Plasma Guns
Drop Troops

2 x Mortar Squads (160)


ELITES [344 pts]

Ogryn Squad (185 pts)
Bone'ead: Carapace Armour, Bionics, Medallion Crimson + 5 Ogryn

Ratlings x 9 (99 pts)
Infiltrate

Hardened Veterans (60 pts)
Vet Sgt: Power Weapon + 4 Vets, 1 Melta gun
Drop Troops/Infiltrate


TROOPS [531 pts]

Infantry Platoon:
Command Squad (131 pts)
JO: Honorifica Imperialis, Plasma Pistol, Power Weapon
Vet: Medi Pack, Plasma Pistol
3 Plasma Guns
CoD, Drop Troops

Infantry Squad #1 (99 pts)
Vet Sgt: Plasma Pistol
Guardsmen: Grenade Launcher, Missile Launcher
CoD, Drop Troops

Infantry Squad #2 (99 pts)
Vet Sgt: Plasma Pistol
Guardsmen: Grenade Launcher, Missile Launcher
CoD, Drop Troops

Armoured Fist(202 pts):
Vet Sgt: Plasma Pistol
Guardsmen: Grenade Launcher, Missile Launcher
Chimera: Multi-laser, Heavy Bolter, Storm Bolter, Extra Armour, Smoke Launchers


FAST ATTACK [230 pts]   
   
2 x Hellhounds


HEAVY SUPPORT [125 pts]
   
Basilisk: Indirect Fire


The Plan:

- the Mortars and Bassie will hang back out of sight and shell the enemy. if i run out of Earthshaker targets within Min Range i will move it out from behind cover and fire directly.

- the Ogryn will ride in the AF Chimera (deploying next to it and embarking in the first turn). they will be my shock troops, and will try to dislodge enemies from Objectives and/or get into CC as soon as possible.

- the AF squad will either sit back and shoot or advance, depending on the mission (they could hold an Objective in my own DZ, for example).

- the Vets will either Infiltrate or DS (keeping my options open) and go tank hunting. afterwards they will get stuck in CC.

- the Hellhounds will advance and roast stuff, hoping to draw fire away from the Chimera.

- both Command Squads will DS and unleash Plasma Death (TM), and then get stuck into CC.

- the Infantry squads will either DS or deploy normally (again, keeping my options open), depending on the mission. in Objective games they will try to keep their distance from the enemy (unlike the Command Squads). they are designed to be mobile (Grenade Launchers) rather than stationary - the Missile Launchers should only come into play once they have reached their Objectives/if the enemy is vehicle heavy.

- the Ratlings will Infiltrate into good cover and make a nuisance of themselves, then Go To Ground (2+ Cover Saves!) when they draw too much attention.

in DoW i will deploy Mortars as my HQ (either 1 or both squads, depending on how my opponents play Rulebook vs Codex), although my Troops will depend on the mission.

ive got 4 pts left to spend on Frag and/or Krak grenades - where do you think they should go? :?:
(i was considering Frags for the Officers and Krak for the Hardened Vet Sgt)

i'd love to hear your thoughts on the list and the plan - cheers! :D

~ Tim
Last edited by LordMalekTheRedKnight on Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 1500pts IG (yes KMB, 1500pts!)

Postby Ljundhammer » Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:03 pm

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:Hey all :)


Hello! hopefully I can chime in with some useful stuff...


Code: Select all
IG 1496 pts Army List

KP: 16
Model count: 4 Vehicles + 72 Infantry (86 Wounds)
Scoring Units: 4s

Doctrines:
Ogryn
Ratlings
Drop Troops
Close Order Drill


HQ - Command Platoon [266 pts]:

Command Squad (106 pts)
JO: Plasma Pistol, Power Weapon
Vet: Medi Pack, Plasma Pistol
3 Plasma Guns
Drop Troops


Waaaaaaay to pricey for a suicide squad! No need for the medic (they are all going to die anyway!), just take 3 or 4 plasma guns, kill some stuff, die in a hail of return fire.

Drop troops need to be cheap or you are wasting points.

Code: Select all
2 x Mortar Squads (160)


Mortars IMHO may as well fire silly string. Lascannons are needed here - you have no ani-armour.

Code: Select all
ELITES [344 pts]

Ogryn Squad (185 pts)
Bone'ead: Carapace Armour, Bionics, Medallion Crimson + 5 Ogryn


Bionics & Medallion Crimson are wasted points here. I assume you like the Ogryns & know that they aren't exactly the mainstay of a competative army, so I'll leave it at saying you are better off with RR if you want to assault anything.

Code: Select all
Ratlings x 9 (99 pts)
Infiltrate


Seems a large squad, but it'll do a job...

Code: Select all
Hardened Veterans (60 pts)
Vet Sgt: Power Weapon + 4 Vets, 1 Melta gun
Drop Troops/Infiltrate


What? No really - What? What are these guys actually going to do? If you are after dropping AT you need 3 meltas, if you want an assault squad - play Space Marines. This needs a total re-think as to what it needs to do.


Code: Select all
TROOPS [531 pts]

Infantry Platoon:
Command Squad (131 pts)
JO: Honorifica Imperialis, Plasma Pistol, Power Weapon
Vet: Medi Pack, Plasma Pistol
3 Plasma Guns
CoD, Drop Troops


What do these guys do? They stand at the back & stop your guys running away. Why give them any guns? If you are doing your job properly these guys shouldn't even see the enemy. Drop all the toys except the HI. Even better, swap this for the command squad & get a banner.

Code: Select all
Infantry Squad #1 (99 pts)
Vet Sgt: Plasma Pistol
Guardsmen: Grenade Launcher, Missile Launcher
CoD, Drop Troops

Infantry Squad #2 (99 pts)
Vet Sgt: Plasma Pistol
Guardsmen: Grenade Launcher, Missile Launcher
CoD, Drop Troops

Armoured Fist(202 pts):
Vet Sgt: Plasma Pistol
Guardsmen: Grenade Launcher, Missile Launcher
Chimera: Multi-laser, Heavy Bolter, Storm Bolter, Extra Armour, Smoke Launchers


Grenade launchers are similar to air horns - they are load, annoying, make your ears hurt & have no use in society - drop them. There is a gun for 2 points more called a plasma gun that actually has an effect on the survivability of enemy troops - use them.

I prefer autocannons in line squads (high strength, good chance of hitting) with lascannons in AT role in AT squads. Missile launchers are neither good at killing tanks, nor can they hit anything reliably.

Plasma pistols? At that price?


Code: Select all
FAST ATTACK [230 pts]   
   
2 x Hellhounds


Sh*t - I just found something I like! Where's the extra armour & smoke launchers? The best 8 points you can spend on ANY vehicle.


Code: Select all
HEAVY SUPPORT [125 pts]
   
Basilisk: Indirect Fire


Yep, that'll do a job.

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:i'd love to hear your thoughts on the list and the plan - cheers! :D

~ Tim


You could have a plan so cunning you pin a tail on it & call it a fox. That list will be ransacked by pretty much anything that looks at it funny.

You are lacking AT (1 melta gun & an earthshaker)
Anti-personel (1 heavy bolter, not enough plasma)
Movement (1 transport & 2 hellhounds)

You are wasting points on wargear - you need to be ruthless with the IG - they are not an easy army to use, anything that doesn't efficiently kill the enemy at a long range, or stop your guys running is not needed.

You need to sit down & work out what you like about the guard. The list needs focus. It also lacks pretty much all the good bits in the guard army (LRs, decent drop-troops & so much plasma it makes Marneus Calgar cry bitter tears of ineptitude).

Things to focus on:
Troops to kill other troops - that's your grunts - plasma guns & heavy bolter/autocannons - also drop trooping plasma squads
Leadership - that means a HSO with banner & a JO with HI hiding at the back (you can get away with one or other of these)
Troops to kill tanks - lascannon AT squads, and drop trooping melta squads
Tanks to scare the enemy - hellhounds & LRs/LRDs

Then you start adding in wargear & 'funnies' like ogryns & snipers.

Sorry to come across a bit harsh, but hope it helps.

James
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Postby killmaimburn » Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:41 pm

Congratulations on making it to the mens club ;)
I think its important to work out what your group consists of..you say your last list was comp gun line..Did you give it up to play gentler games with noob likes who think spawn are awesome,\if so I'd leave the list as is. If however your playing for fun and friendly competition there are a few things wrong with it.

I know that ljundhammer went around kicking puppies (not really dog lovers) about a call that GW made about command squads deepstriking, it might be worth checking with your group about how they interpreted it (e.g. if they decided that the GT rule became houserule la....if it did IIRC it kills your lists DS potential)Remember your the guset you can't just shout down their house rules for being silly ;)

I would agree with Ljundhammer that taken hardened vets and then assuming they'll make it to combat is a bit strange- how about a demo charge or max plas/melta load out.
Same for the command squads,if they can..I think models over wargear is a good policy for what you want in your list.

I was unimpressed by ratlings when I've played against them..they seem to relie on the enemy never being bothered to think they are a threat..and then pulling a cat out of a hat,then getting the attention they don' want..but meh they're cheap if they do well do come back here and tell me.

Be prepared for those chimeras to do a lot less in 5th, its a big change for the larger guard armies- your mobile shooty cheap thing is no longer mobile.

I like the FA and heavy :)

The last time I encountereddrop trooping missile/lascannons it was because the bloke thought he could deep andshoot them..I think a stable firing line with guarenteed LOS paths would be more sensible for the guard.
I think guard can do most things well. I don't think A guard unit can do all things well..I like to see more units set to dedicated purpose A B or C.

I'd be interested to hear what wolflord havoc et al think about your list...My experiences mostly come from james and 2 others(who knew less).
Last edited by killmaimburn on Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby swordtart » Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:11 pm

Hmm, thinking outside the "How can I win box".

I applaude your courage and I hope the emperor smiles on your grit (but it will probably be posthumous).

I disgree with the grende launcher vs plasma crit. My maths makes Grenade launchers a better buy (just don't bother using frag).

The trouble with an army that designed to move (rather than the static gun-line) that you wished to avoid is the many of the arms available to you are Rapid Fire which makes them useless when you move. GL is at least assault.

I presume you are using ML's because you have them rather than for any tactical reason (they are jack-of-all-trades as Ljundhammer says - but you know this already Tim) I would bin heavies entirely and have a fast moving squad that relies on flashlights and bayonets (ok faint hope, but it's fun). Give the sergeant a lasgun or better a bolter or storm bolter if you want to waste the 5 pts to make him a vet. Definitely consider surveyors to get your shots in early.

Cheap troops mean 50% more of them and make him run out of bullets + take objectives, glue him up in CC etc. By that logic conscripts would be a good bet (and you have a slot free). Shame you can't have drop conscripts ;) Make cons big (50) if you can. I can't remember off hand if they can take ML's, if so the fact you hit 33% of the time with a ML means their low BS on scatter isn't too much of a handicap. But all IG blasts are pish.

Better if you can offset low BS by more shots e.g. getting autocannons. Bolters fire more often and are cheaper, but half the shots will bounce off. Very little non AV shrugs off an autocannon. A/C for conscripts are particularly good value compared to conventional units. 10 A/C shots a turn targeted at a single unit might make its ears bleed. It shreds nids. Advance them in front of your battle line and I suspect your opponent will be saying "what the...." If you loose the whole 50 it is still 1 kill and only cost you 300 pts.

Your ratlings are getting better under 5th as now the BS4 means something and rending and pinning can really bog down the baddies, I would buy the extra ratling if you have the figure for it. Stick em in a fort for your 3+ save and shoot all day. I was suprised how effective snipers are if not used in penny packets (as I assumed a lone sniper would be at least somewhat effective).
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Re: 1500pts IG (yes KMB, 1500pts!)

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:27 pm

i probably should have said a little about the local metagame. so far, the 3 x 1500 pt lists i have seen used are:

- balanced/mixed Eldar
- Mech Tau
- WH/IG

no MEQs (closest are Sisters and Aspects), and not much AV14 (if any).

Ljundhammer wrote:Waaaaaaay to pricey for a suicide squad! No need for the medic (they are all going to die anyway!), just take 3 or 4 plasma guns, kill some stuff, die in a hail of return fire.

im limited a little by the models in my collection. i could swap out the Plasma Medic for a Plasma Gun, and i could lose the Plasma Pistol on the JO. i'd rather keep the JO's pistol, but i could lose the Medic (that would free 11 pts). :)

Ljundhammer wrote:Mortars IMHO may as well fire silly string. Lascannons are needed here - you have no ani-armour.

my competitive list has 6 Lascannons (Sharpshooters), so they are intentionally absent. it also didnt have any Mortars, so they are intentionally present. ;)

i think they will be worth a try with the new "no partials" rule. :)

as to anti-tank, ive got the Bassie, 3 Krak Missiles and all those Plasma Guns - should be enough as i will most likely be facing AV 11-13 (and hopefully getting side/rear shots with the DS'ers).

Ljundhammer wrote:Bionics & Medallion Crimson are wasted points here. I assume you like the Ogryns & know that they aren't exactly the mainstay of a competative army, so I'll leave it at saying you are better off with RR if you want to assault anything.

well ive got no RRs (the ones riding lizards for my Ash Nomads are still waiting to be assembled), so thats not an option. i only used my Ogryns once under 4th ed, and i wanted to give them a try. the Bone'ead is my Ogryn Bodyguard conversion, so a few upgrades seemed appropriate. i also thought that the Bone'ead might help keep the squad alive (Complex Unit + ability to waste an ID wound on his Medallion).

i could drop the Bionics (even though they are on the model) and save 5 pts, but i thought the medal would be worth it (15 pts to save a 25+pts Ogryn from ID).

Ljundhammer wrote:Seems a large squad, but it'll do a job...

i do have 10 Ratlings, but one of them has gone missing... again, they are a unit that hasnt seen action in ages (they dont fit the fluff or look of my regiment).

Ljundhammer wrote:What? No really - What? What are these guys actually going to do? If you are after dropping AT you need 3 meltas, if you want an assault squad - play Space Marines. This needs a total re-think as to what it needs to do.

the Hardened Vets are being represented by my old 2nd ed Storm Troopers (berets) - ive only got 1 Melta gun. ive also got a few more troopers and a Heavy Bolter team, but thats it. i just wanted some BS4 anti-tank, and a flexible unit. i thought they were relatively cheap for what they could do. plus i havent used them in ages either (both Hardened Vets as a unit and the models themselves).

Ljundhammer wrote:What do these guys do? They stand at the back & stop your guys running away. Why give them any guns? If you are doing your job properly these guys shouldn't even see the enemy. Drop all the toys except the HI. Even better, swap this for the command squad & get a banner.

no banner in my collection, unfortunately. :(

in my competitive list this squad advances behind a Chimera or hangs back waiting for the enemy to come within Rapid Fire range. im stuck using the same models, but wanted to try something different by using them as Drop Troops. the idea is that as well as being able to do considerable damage up close, they can also claim Objectives. thats why i gave the JO the Honorifica (cheaper than a HSO too, which i didnt take in my HQ) and why they have the Medi-pack - it will take 8 wounds to kill them, which is nearly as much as an Infantry squad. hopefully something will survive to threaten an Objective, or they will at least do some damage and then draw some fire.

Ljundhammer wrote:Grenade launchers are similar to air horns - they are load, annoying, make your ears hurt & have no use in society - drop them. There is a gun for 2 points more called a plasma gun that actually has an effect on the survivability of enemy troops - use them.

my competitive list was all Plasma (in fact i almost sold the Grenade Launchers that came with the squads), but i have had a lot of fun with Grenade Launchers in CP. their range and mobility means the squads can do something while advancing, and dont have to get too close to the enemy. my comp list was very static, so a bit of mobility is very welcome. also, the new "no partials" rule should help. plus there is the local metagame to consider...

Ljundhammer wrote:I prefer autocannons in line squads (high strength, good chance of hitting) with lascannons in AT role in AT squads. Missile launchers are neither good at killing tanks, nor can they hit anything reliably.

i normally take 3 Autocannons w/Sharpshooters in my HQ platoon. i could swap them in, but i like the Missile Launcher in line squads for 2 reasons: its versatile, and it can threaten any Vehicle in the game, allowing me to spread out some AT firepower. i also like how they go with Grenade Launchers (2 x Frag or 2 x Krak).

i could swap in an Autocannon into one of the squads though, for a bit of variation. :)

Ljundhammer wrote:Plasma pistols? At that price?

they are on the models. i could drop one down to a laspistol (i have a spare Sgt with his pistol holstered) saving 10 pts.

ive had good luck with them in the past though, killing Walkers who would otherwise be able to charge and tie up my units.

Ljundhammer wrote:I just found something I like! Where's the extra armour & smoke launchers? The best 8 points you can spend on ANY vehicle.

i havent actually found my Hellhounds yet - just the turrets :oops: (so i know i havent sold them, and they must be there somewhere), and i dont remember exactly what they have on them. i could probably get away with Smokes and EA regardless, so that is an option. i didnt think i would get much use out of Smokes though, as i will always want to shoot (plus i can just use Cover). :?

Ljundhammer wrote:You could have a plan so cunning you pin a tail on it & call it a fox. That list will be ransacked by pretty much anything that looks at it funny.

:oops:

i wasnt trying to win a tournament or anything with it, so i thought it was competent enough... :(
(although again, i probably should have explained the local metagame in my first post)

a good portion of the force can hide completely, some can infiltrate into good cover, and another chunk can DS (allowing it to get first shots in).

Ljundhammer wrote:You are lacking AT (1 melta gun & an earthshaker)

see i think of Krak Missiles and Deepstriking Plasma Guns as AT...

Ljundhammer wrote:Anti-personel (1 heavy bolter, not enough plasma)

what about all those Blast Markers? i can drop up to 12 a turn, afterall.
plus there are the Hellhounds, and all the Lasguns.

Ljundhammer wrote:Movement (1 transport & 2 hellhounds)

with Grenade Launchers, Run Moves, Deepstrike and Infiltrators, i thought this list was relatively mobile for IG...

sure its not Mechanised, and there are no Cavalry, but its hardly static. by turn 2-3 my army can be pretty much all over the board.

Ljundhammer wrote:You are wasting points on wargear - you need to be ruthless with the IG - they are not an easy army to use, anything that doesn't efficiently kill the enemy at a long range, or stop your guys running is not needed.

ive only spent 60pts on none-weapon wargear - thats probably less than i used to spend in my 'competitve' list! :P
(and some of that saves me 5 pts compared to buying a HSO, and gets a 3W Ld9 model into a Scoring Unit)

besides, i wanted to move away from "efficient long range killing whilst never running away" with this list (its what my old list did, and did well... a little too well).

i would rather have fun and lose with this list than win whilst yawning (which is how it got with my old static list).

Ljundhammer wrote:You need to sit down & work out what you like about the guard. The list needs focus. It also lacks pretty much all the good bits in the guard army (LRs, decent drop-troops & so much plasma it makes Marneus Calgar cry bitter tears of ineptitude).

see now that sounds like my old list. :lol:

the 'focus' for this list was to be as different as possible as the old one, and get as much as i could out of retirement. i also wanted a balanced approach, an army that did a bit of everything rather than specialising in one form of combat. ive got some long range and some short range, some shooty and some combat, some mobile and some static, some anti tank and some anti infantry.

Ljundhammer wrote:Sorry to come across a bit harsh, but hope it helps.

James

no need to apologise, mate - i appreciate the honest reply. :)

i can see about dropping a few bits and pieces (as above) to free up a few points, but what should i spend them on? a Remnant squad to give me another scoring unit? upgrades for the Hellhounds? some Grenades (Frag/Krak)? maybe i could swap a Missile Launcher for an Autocannon and give the squad Sharpshooters? :?:

cheers :)

~ Tim
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Postby WolflordHavoc » Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:51 pm

Looking at the list I largly agree with Ljundhammer - Except with regards to the Silly string comment - mortars are great BUT lascannon would be better in this army.

Unless fluff reasons prohibit their use (such as my Vraxian renegades not being able to maintain them) plasma guns in every squad!

I also take Missile launchers in all infantry and platoon command squads. Its the best all round heavy weapon IMO.

Put Heavybolters/Autocannon and lascannon in heavy weapon squads where you can focus their firepower to best effect.

I don't take Power swords in my Guard as msot enemies that would require a power weapon you also need a 5+ to wound and are more often than not are going last in combat anyway. Powerfists are the future. Or don't bother cc'ing up an officer.

I however have 10 powerfists in my Guard Company (its a sort of badge of rank) and ask KMB and MattGilbert how good they were in killing Terminators! But they and the Mortars etc were a deliberate choice - however they are choices that have paid off IMO.
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Postby killmaimburn » Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:51 pm

Note lord M he was talking about optimal deep strikers- your list is by its nature near that..its not static gunline- bhut it does need to be more dispensible.
A weapon never used is a weapon wasted...The missiles landing (after a reserves roll and waiting a turn) is what made whirlwinds not tourney worthy in 4th.. getting anti tank.. that can't realistically dent av14 able to shoot in turn 5 is no anti tank.
Where is your sentinal with improved comms- isn't that mandatory with this kind of build?
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Postby mattjgilbert » Fri Sep 19, 2008 3:02 pm

Tim... maybe if you posted a list of the models (and wargerar) you actually have you won't get told to add something you can't :)
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Fri Sep 19, 2008 3:08 pm

killmaimburn wrote:Congratulations on making it to the mens club ;)

:roll: :P

killmaimburn wrote:I think its important to work out what your group consists of..

yes, i forgot that in my OP, but ive remedied that in my post above. :)

killmaimburn wrote:you say your last list was comp gun line..Did you give it up to play gentler games with noob likes who think spawn are awesome,\if so I'd leave the list as is. If however your playing for fun and friendly competition there are a few things wrong with it.

the last list was written for a shop tourney with a strong MEQ metagame. it was pretty WAAC (with the 'cost' being that it was boring as hell, practically like playing "IG shooting gallery").
in short:
6 lascannons, 3 autocannons, 3 missile launchers, 12+ plasma weapons, demolisher, bassie, russ, chimera. CoD, Iron Discipline, Sharpshooters.

it was fun for a little while, but very 1 dimensional, so got old fast.

killmaimburn wrote:I know that ljundhammer went around kicking puppies (not really dog lovers) about a call that GW made about command squads deepstriking, it might be worth checking with your group about how they interpreted it (e.g. if they decided that the GT rule became houserule la....if it did IIRC it kills your lists DS potential)Remember your the guset you can't just shout down their house rules for being silly ;)

AFAIK the Command Squad should be able to DS without the rest of the Platoon DS'ing (Drop Troops is per unit, not per FOC choice/army). as its just going to be a friendly game (i.e. they are tourney players but they dont actually have the tournaments at this club) i dont think such things would cause problems (we are all still learning 5th ed anyway).

killmaimburn wrote:I would agree with Ljundhammer that taken hardened vets and then assuming they'll make it to combat is a bit strange- how about a demo charge or max plas/melta load out.

as above, i am limited by the models. the plan is to DS so as their target vehicle is between them and the rest of the enemy. that should keep retalition fire down. as to assuming they get into CC: i am expecting them to get charged. :P

killmaimburn wrote:Same for the command squads,if they can..I think models over wargear is a good policy for what you want in your list.

aside from heavy weapon gunners, i only have about half a dozen models left over in my collection (and i have even pressed my snap fit cadians into immediate service ;)).

killmaimburn wrote:I was unimpressed by ratlings when I've played against them..they seem to relie on the enemy never being bothered to think they are a threat..and then pulling a cat out of a hat,then getting the attention they don' want..but meh they're cheap if they do well do come back here and tell me.

i used to take just 3 as a throwaway unit under this codex, but when i bought Steel Legion figs they didnt fit anymore. now in 5th they have received quite a buff: overall cover saves have improved, they can GTG, and Sniper Rifles now have Rending (plus their BS 4 makes up a bit for losing the "hit on 2+" rule). they can even make Outflanking moves, if i feel like it. :D

killmaimburn wrote:Be prepared for those chimeras to do a lot less in 5th, its a big change for the larger guard armies- your mobile shooty cheap thing is no longer mobile.

i would have taken minimum weapon loadout and used it just as a transport, but im stuck with the weapons that are on the model (built under 2nd ed LOL). im hoping to use the Chimera to dump the Ogryn forward in turn 2 (using Smokes and/or Cover and not shooting) and then after that use it as a pillbox.

i have to take it to satisfy Min Troop requirements for the FOC anyway. :)

killmaimburn wrote:I like the FA and heavy :)

cheers :)

killmaimburn wrote:The last time I encountereddrop trooping missile/lascannons it was because the bloke thought he could deep andshoot them..I think a stable firing line with guarenteed LOS paths would be more sensible for the guard.

well the Drop Troops Doctrine is free points-wise, so i may as well give it to them and have the option. the idea is to land them on or near objectives halfway through the game, if they use it at all. otherwise they will be advancing through cover on foot to get to where they need to be.
either way, once there they can set up fire bases and start using the heavy weapons next turn.

what i dont want is for the bulk of my army to never leave my DZ (like the 'good old days'). :oops:

killmaimburn wrote:I'd be interested to hear what wolflord havoc et al think about your list....

agreed.

cheers mate :)

~ Tim
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Re: 1500pts IG (yes KMB, 1500pts!)

Postby Ljundhammer » Fri Sep 19, 2008 3:19 pm

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:i probably should have said a little about the local metagame. so far, the 3 x 1500 pt lists i have seen used are:

- balanced/mixed Eldar
- Mech Tau
- WH/IG

no MEQs (closest are Sisters and Aspects), and not much AV14 (if any).


I'm moving to Cardiff now & bringing my DeathWing - woo hoo!

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:i wasnt trying to win a tournament or anything with it, so i thought it was competent enough... :(
(although again, i probably should have explained the local metagame in my first post)

a good portion of the force can hide completely, some can infiltrate into good cover, and another chunk can DS (allowing it to get first shots in).


I can kinda see what your trying to achieve. I just can't see it working. Everone still gets saves againt the barrages & they are unlikeky to hit anything (average scatter for a barrage being 7" 2/3rds of the time). The dropping guys will fare a little better, assuming they drop within 12" of the enemy to get your lasguns rapid-firing (even then there's a reason they're called flashlights). I'm going to pull out a little mathhammer here, because I can:
You drop within 12" & fire at an Eldar guardian squad:
Lasguns - 14 shots, 7 hit, 3.5 wound, 2.3 dead
Krak launcher - 0.5 hits, 0.41 wounds, 0.41 dead
Plasma pistol - 0.5 hits, 0.41 wounds, 0.41 dead (with risk of causing 0.11 kills on yourself)
Total killed guardians - 3.12 (assuming no cover)

That isn't very many guardians, it's less aspect warriors, and even less SMurfs. Added into that the dangerous terrain check if you scatter & hit cover by mistake, this doesn't look a very viable tactic.

If you are going drop troop you need massive multiples of troops for redundancy & make sure that every one can punish the enemy.

BTW, I know that this isn't for tournament play - I don't get the mentaliy that you need to hamstring your army to have fun - I'd rather play a good player with a good army that makes me think about every move I make than someone who will brings a list that has no realistic chance of winning. I like brining the odd unit to the table that other people don't like because I think I can make it work, but deliberatly selecting bad units doesn't make fun games for you or your opponent in my experience.

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:see i think of Krak Missiles and Deepstriking Plasma Guns as AT...


I'm going to pull some more mathhammer on you:
Your army has 3 krack missiles - v's a predator (I'm discounting your plasma, they are definately going to be needed in an anti-personell role):
3 shots - 1.5 hits = 0.25 glances, 0.25 penetrates per turn
So every other turn you will get either a glance oer a pentrate.

Predator fires back:
autocannon & 2 x heavy bolter = 8 shots, 5.33 his, 4.44 dead (barring cover saves) he'll kill a squad in the time it takes you to hurt him & even then you'll more than likely not knock him out of the game... This tactic also means that you have the choice of either taking out the tank, or killing the 3 guardians above.


LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:what about all those Blast Markers? i can drop up to 12 a turn, afterall.
plus there are the Hellhounds, and all the Lasguns.


I'll let you do your own math on the morters, but the lasguns cannot do anti personel while the Kraks do anti-tank, it's one or the other.

That's why I have lascannon AT squads & anti-personell line squads...


LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:
Ljundhammer wrote:You are wasting points on wargear - you need to be ruthless with the IG - they are not an easy army to use, anything that doesn't efficiently kill the enemy at a long range, or stop your guys running is not needed.

ive only spent 60pts on none-weapon wargear - thats probably less than i used to spend in my 'competitve' list! :P
(and some of that saves me 5 pts compared to buying a HSO, and gets a 3W Ld9 model into a Scoring Unit)


Anything from the armoury is overpriced, the only exceptions are:
Honerifica Imperialis
There are no other exceptions
You need boots & plasma if you are going to drop troop.

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:besides, i wanted to move away from "efficient long range killing whilst never running away" with this list (its what my old list did, and did well... a little too well).

i would rather have fun and lose with this list than win whilst yawning (which is how it got with my old static list).


Unfortunately there are only a few wayas to run a 'fully competative' list with the Guard. And we lost one of those in 5th ed - Static I believe will not work until we get a new codex (I never liked it anyway). Which leaves the Drop army.

I run a Blitzkrieg army, it's a little second tier (and I haven't pulled it out for a while due to other projects getting in the way). It consists of Grenadiers (the coolest concept in 40k, apart from terminators), chimeras, hellhounds, russes & droptroops. Guard needn't be dull or ineffective (Who said and? - I heard you!)

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:the 'focus' for this list was to be as different as possible as the old one, and get as much as i could out of retirement. i also wanted a balanced approach, an army that did a bit of everything rather than specialising in one form of combat. ive got some long range and some short range, some shooty and some combat, some mobile and some static, some anti tank and some anti infantry.


You've got too much of a mish mash - you need to specialise - IG aren't SMurfs, they can't do everything. Every part of the army needs a role - specialise in that role, then have another squad just incase it cocks up - then be backed up by specialists in other roles, who have back ups in case they cock-up.

Your line squads are a case in point - they cannot be AT and Anti-personell - they can only do one thing per turn, at the moment they do neither.



LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:i can see about dropping a few bits and pieces (as above) to free up a few points, but what should i spend them on? a Remnant squad to give me another scoring unit? upgrades for the Hellhounds? some Grenades (Frag/Krak)? maybe i could swap a Missile Launcher for an Autocannon and give the squad Sharpshooters? :?: .


If you want a different army, I'd go full on drop heavy. No heavy weapons, a russ/hellhound/ bassie or 2. Drop so many guardsmen in & around their lines that they can't kill them all!

Otherwise try conscripts as Swordtart suggests - you'll need about 30, an Indie Commisar, a couple of squads of Ogryns & hammer across the board as guardsmen drop out of the sky around them - that sounds like a laugh! (It might even work!).

Good luck!
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Fri Sep 19, 2008 3:23 pm

swordtart wrote:Hmm, thinking outside the "How can I win box".

I applaude your courage and I hope the emperor smiles on your grit (but it will probably be posthumous).

hehe. cheers :)

swordtart wrote:The trouble with an army that designed to move (rather than the static gun-line) that you wished to avoid is the many of the arms available to you are Rapid Fire which makes them useless when you move. GL is at least assault.

my thinking exactly. :)

swordtart wrote:I presume you are using ML's because you have them rather than for any tactical reason (they are jack-of-all-trades as Ljundhammer says - but you know this already Tim) I would bin heavies entirely and have a fast moving squad that relies on flashlights and bayonets (ok faint hope, but it's fun). Give the sergeant a lasgun or better a bolter or storm bolter if you want to waste the 5 pts to make him a vet.

unfortunately i dont have enough Lasgun models to drop the heavies or the Vet Sgts, and ive got no Storm Bolters either. :(

since the OP, ive talked about why i like Missile Launchers, above. :)

swordtart wrote:Definitely consider surveyors to get your shots in early.

hadnt thought of them - consider them added to mylist of "what should i spend my last few points on" options. :)

swordtart wrote:Cheap troops mean 50% more of them and make him run out of bullets + take objectives, glue him up in CC etc. By that logic conscripts would be a good bet (and you have a slot free).

LOL my collection would double if i bought 50 conscripts! :P
(it was bought originally as a min-maxing exercise)

swordtart wrote:Your ratlings are getting better under 5th as now the BS4 means something and rending and pinning can really bog down the baddies, I would buy the extra ratling if you have the figure for it.

if the last guy turns up (he could be hiding with the Hellhounds :lol:) i will try to add him.

cheers! :)

~ Tim
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Fri Sep 19, 2008 3:42 pm

mattjgilbert wrote:Tim... maybe if you posted a list of the models (and wargerar) you actually have you won't get told to add something you can't :)

thats probably a good idea. :oops:

sitting on the bench at the moment are:

3 x Autocannons w/Gunners (need lasgun troopers as Loaders)
^thinking of swapping one for a Missile Launcher
6 x Lascannons w/Gunners (need lasgun troopers as Loaders)
Demolisher (Las/Plas)
Russ (Las)
^ all 3 left out to make the list different to my old one)
1 x Ogryn
^ couldnt all fit in Chimera
5 x "beret" Storm Troopers ("count as Hardened Vets) inc. Heavy Bolter team
3 x snapfit Cadians
2 x Plasma Guns troopers
1 x Laspistol + CCW Sgt
^ needs to be built
2 x Mortars without crew (need lasgun troopers as crew)

thats about it, without using proxies (or FW, as i have the Scanner i scratchbuilt). :)

killmaimburn wrote:Where is your sentinal with improved comms- isn't that mandatory with this kind of build?

dont have any Sentinels (yet). :(

besides, i only have 2 definate DS units - everything else could well deploy on the board.

cheers :)

~ Tim
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Re: 1500pts IG (yes KMB, 1500pts!)

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:28 pm

Ljundhammer wrote:The dropping guys will fare a little better, assuming they drop within 12" of the enemy to get your lasguns rapid-firing (even then there's a reason they're called flashlights). I'm going to pull out a little mathhammer here, because I can:...

well nothing with a Lasgun should be landing within 12" of the enemy anyway - thats what the Command Squads are for. ;)

the Infantry Squads should be landing ~20" away and using their Grenade Launchers on the turn they arrive (unless Running would be a better option), and then setting up the Heavy Weapons next turn while the enemy are still out of charge/Rapid Fire range. they are my Scoring Units, afterall.

Ljundhammer wrote:If you are going drop troop you need massive multiples of troops for redundancy & make sure that every one can punish the enemy.

the Infantry squads arent intending on using Drop Troops to help them kill the enemy (the Command Squads are though) they are using it (when they do) to keep them safely in Reserves for the first few turns and then get them straight to the objectives when it matters. thats got to be safer than crossing no mans land in a flak jacket. ;)

Ljundhammer wrote:BTW, I know that this isn't for tournament play - I don't get the mentaliy that you need to hamstring your army to have fun - I'd rather play a good player with a good army that makes me think about every move I make than someone who will brings a list that has no realistic chance of winning. I like brining the odd unit to the table that other people don't like because I think I can make it work, but deliberatly selecting bad units doesn't make fun games for you or your opponent in my experience.

i wouldnt say im deliberately selecting bad units, just that im deliberately leaving out units i used to use a lot and as a result im having to make do with whats left on my shelf. my options were:

- dont play the tourny players at all (which would be a shame, as they make up 50-100% of the people playing 40K at the club on any given night)
- play them with a potentially quite competitive list that i would find boring(and which doesnt reflect the player i have become since the time i wrote it)
- play them with a less than competitive list that would be interesting and fun for me to use

if im not going to enjoy the game (i.e. use my old list) then i may as well not play. i also dont want to give them an innaccurate impression of me based on an "out of date" list (play-style wise). i want to enjoy the game, and hopefully they will too, and with any luck i can convince them to give CP a try (where i wont just be 'making do' with what i have at my disposal - besides, my Zombie list is probably quite competitive, actually...).

if they walk all over me and wipe me out well at least i will have tried, and i wont have so much dust on my less competitive models anymore. :)

Ljundhammer wrote:I'm going to pull some more mathhammer on you:
Your army has 3 krack missiles - v's a predator (I'm discounting your plasma, they are definately going to be needed in an anti-personell role):

i seriously doubt i will see a Pred... more likely an Exorcist, Penitent Engine / Devilfish, Hammerhead / Falcon, Wave Serpent.

all of which are nice juicy targets for the Plasma Command Squads (16 x S7 shots between them, one of which is BS4).

im not expecting my long range firepower to reliably put down tanks every turn (thats what the old list did, with 6 Sharpshooter Lascannons, 3 Krak Missiles, 3 Sharpshooter Autocannons, and 3 Ordnance shots) - i just want enough to have a chance at killing tanks over the course of the game. i dont mind if i have to work for it by Infiltrating into side arcs or DS'ing within 12" - will certainly be more fun that way (killing a Monolith/Landraider in the first turn was nothing out of the ordinary for the old list, and such kills started to feel hollow after a while).

Ljundhammer wrote:That's why I have lascannon AT squads & anti-personell line squads...

i agree that that is statistically superior and thats why i did it in my old list (i used to have 3 x Lascannon support squads and Missile Launchers in the line squads, with 3 Autocannons in another support squad).

Ljundhammer wrote:Guard needn't be dull or ineffective

i agree there too. im just working with what ive got available to me, though (whilst trying to avoid feeling like im playing my old list).

if i was buying a new list, it certainly wouldnt look like this - same goes if i was trying to win a tourny prize. after the new codex gets released i will be buying a new 1500 pt army, and while its not going to be for competitions, its going to be quite different to this one (i expect).

Ljundhammer wrote:Your line squads are a case in point - they cannot be AT and Anti-personell - they can only do one thing per turn, at the moment they do neither.

they have the ability - a chance - to do both though. a couple of Frags into IG/Militia/Guardians/FWs could do quite well, as could a couple of Kraks into a SoB Rhino or a Wave Serpent. they are a threat to everything, even if not a particularly serious one. if they get considered harmless then they have the potential to capitalise on that, and if they get ignored, then even better.

besides, they dont need to kill anything in an Objective game... ;)

Ljundhammer wrote:If you want a different army, I'd go full on drop heavy...

thats not really an option, unfortunately (ive since posted a list of what i have left to use).

i could maybe free up just enough points for a 5 man Remnant squad w/a Plasma Gun (CoD & Drop Troops free) to give me another Scoring Unit/more bodies on the board. that will be about it. otherwise we are talking options/wargear/upgrades.
maybe make the JO a SO? upgrades for the Hellhounds? some Grenades (Frag/Krak)? maybe i could swap a Missile Launcher for an Autocannon and give the squad Sharpshooters? surveyors to shoot Infiltrators?

what do you (all) think i should go for? :?:

cheers :)

~ Tim
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Postby Ljundhammer » Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:54 pm

Hey Tim, sorry, we crossed posts as you were posting your "stuff I can swap out" list.

Given what you've got - I'd get the upgrades for the hellhounds & try to get some more scoring units in there. Given that you are going to be dropping, I'd leave the plasma pistols on your Vet Sarges (much as it pains me to say it!) as there isn't anything else to viably swap in.

Have you got anything like an =][= you can push in (a 3 x HB squad would be quite tasty in here I think).

I wouldn't bother about infiltrators, I think if they have infiltrate you will likely want to drop, simpley to confuse them & put the advantage back to you... Again grenades don't - bother, if you haven't killed it by shooting it, you are unlikely to hurt it & frags are useless - you'll likely be going second anyway!

I recommend that read the liturgies of battle, purify your soul before the Emperor through flagellation & prostrate yourself whilst reciting the prayer of victory. A bucket load of LSD will lighten the mood in any event ;)
When in deadly danger
When beset by doubt
Run in little circles
Wave your arms and shout
- parody of the litany of command
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Fri Sep 19, 2008 5:14 pm

Ljundhammer wrote:Hey Tim, sorry, we crossed posts as you were posting your "stuff I can swap out" list.

no worries. :)

Ljundhammer wrote:Given what you've got - I'd get the upgrades for the hellhounds & try to get some more scoring units in there. Given that you are going to be dropping, I'd leave the plasma pistols on your Vet Sarges (much as it pains me to say it!) as there isn't anything else to viably swap in.

lets crunch some numbers - i can:
- downgrade HQ Command Squad Medic to a Plasma Gunner = 11 pts
- drop Bone'ead Bionics = 5 pts
add the 4 pts i already have left over, and that gives me 20 pts to spend.

going further means losing guns... although i could probably spare the AF Plasma Pistol, as they should be keeping their distance, since they cant DS and the Ogryn will be stealing their transport - that would give me 10 more points.

this would be enough for a basic Remnants squad, but i need to pay for a Plasma Gun on top to make them WYSIWYG.

to get any more points would mean dropping the Medallion Crimson, although i worry that i will regret it (its one of the few ways of keeping the Ogryn alive).

this would also mean that i couldnt afford to upgrade the Hellhounds.

Ljundhammer wrote:Have you got anything like an =][= you can push in (a 3 x HB squad would be quite tasty in here I think).

nope. :(

Ljundhammer wrote:I wouldn't bother about infiltrators, I think if they have infiltrate you will likely want to drop, simpley to confuse them & put the advantage back to you...

well its free, so its there as an option (depends on the mission and the terrain how i will use them).

if i know i will be getting the first turn, it might be worth Infiltrating the Vets so they can move into Melta Gun range of a tank. :twisted:

Ljundhammer wrote:Again grenades don't - bother, if you haven't killed it by shooting it, you are unlikely to hurt it & frags are useless - you'll likely be going second anyway!

i was thinking about giving Frags to the I5 (CoD) 5A (on the charge) hidden Power Weapon Officer - seems a good candidate for 1pt. ;)

Kraks were more to use up the odd couple of pts (i hadnt considered Surveyors at the time). maybe for the Hardened Vet Sgt: they can fire the Melta Gun and then charge if need be (where he gets 3A@ S6 on Rear AV). they would also give me a chance against Penitent Engines etc if they charge me.

Ljundhammer wrote:A bucket load of LSD will lighten the mood in any event ;)

8O i was going to just bring a bag of sweets... :P

cheers again :)

~ Tim
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