Hey all

saw these the other day: Vampire Counts Crypt Ghouls, and ive been trying to think of a way to use them in 40K. I think they would make great cannibals - degenerate feral humans living out in the ash wastes.

Im already planning on using C: WH & C: IG for lots of different "counts as" projects, so i wanted to try something different. the best thing ive been able to come up with so far is C: Nids...

Gaunts seem like a fine unit for them to "count as" - slightly better than normal humans statwise, but with Fleet, Move Through Cover and Instinctive Behavious (all of which fits the bill). i chose Spinefists as their compulsory Weapon option, to represent them pelting their foes with debris (rocks, bone shards, skulls etc). having to take ranged weapons isnt perfect, but as they will be Fleeting most of the time i dont think its much of an issue (low Str, short range, cheap cost) - besides, the only other choice were Hormies, and they would be way too fast.

i didnt want to give them Toxin Sacs (as it would increase their points too much, and make them a little too potent), but at the same time i wanted to at least give the force the ability to damage Vehicle models.

thats when i spotted this guy: Ogre Gorger.

he could be used to represent a giant mutant cannibal (perhaps a descendant of an Ogryn or vat-grown giant) that would lead the horde, and could give them a little punch.

the problem with the Nid codex is that there arent many 1-model units that can be taken in Combat Patrol (this is why i gave up trying to use the 'dex to represent a Genestealer Cult - the only suitable model for the Magus to "count as" is the Zoanthrope, and he cant be taken due to his 2+ Save). the only real option was to represent this giant with the Ravener stats. Rending Claws and Scything Talons seemed like the best choice. he would be fast and powerful - a natural leader.

going back to the Cannibals themselves, i had a choice: keep them cheap and field lots, or make them more expensive. i decided to do the latter, and gave them Scuttlers to represent them sneaking up on the enemy, stalking their prey; and Without Number to represent how the smell of death will draw more cannibals from the surrounding area. both these rules should combine well with Fleet, too.
an advantage of this decision is that i would only need to buy/assemble/paint half as many models.

this is the list i came up with:

Code: Select all

Cannibal Horde [400 Pts Army Tyranid List - 37 models]

Giant Cannibal [Ravener]: Claws [Scything Talons & Rending Claws]

Cannibal Packs [Gaunt Broods] [4 x 9 models]
4 x 9 Cannibals [Gaunts]: Rocks, bone shards, skulls etc [Spinefists], Horde [Scuttlers & Without Number]

everything was looking good until i was halfway through copying out the Instinctive Behaviour rules. now i knew they would be behaving instinctively every turn, as i hadnt taken any Synapse Creatures - and this was fine: they are meant to be cowards. however, it hadnt dawned on me before just how bad this would be: with Ld5, if the Cannibals chose to move then three quarters of them would run away! and for the first couple of turns at least they would have to move to close the distance between them and the enemy (its not like the enemy would come to them in a hurry, what with their 12" range ).

now, Scout moves would be able to mitigate this a little, as they will be able to start their first turn 17" from their own table edge, meaning that the units that run away wont leave the table in the first turn, giving them a chance to Regroup in the next turn (for another 3/4 of them to run again). Without Number would help, as i would at least get units back if they fled off the table (although as the CP Mission relies on VPs, this would put me at a disadvantage). deploying in Terrain (or with some between them and the board edge) would help, by halving the distance they Fall Back (buying them more time). Fleet could also come in handy by allowing me to help a unit to move off the board quicker if it would ever be in my best interests to recycle them. having 4 small packs of Cannibals would mean i at least dont have all my eggs in one basket (although im starting to think that a massive 32 model brood might be the better way to go, as at least when i get to move i do so with all my models...).

despite all this though, they would be at a serious disadvantage without any Synapse Creatures on the board (its a shame you cant take a Broodlord or Tyranid Warrior by themselves, or give Lictors Synapse).
and even if they manage to move towards the enemy instead of away from them, they are only Gaunts afterall (expensive ones at that - they would be outnumbered by Guard!).

this isnt meant to be a competitive list - its meant for fun fluffy games - but even considering that, would it just be suicide?

what if i got rid of "Without Number"? that would save me 108 pts, and buy me another 15 Scuttling Cannibals (i.e. another 2 units), but would it really help? 3/4 of them are still going to run away, and this time they wont coming be back...

is there anything i have missed (either in the Nid Codex or GWs model range) that might help give them more of a fighting chance without diluting/betraying the theme? maybe even something FW/IA? (remember the CP limits, though)

or would any of the other Codex books be better suited to represent such a force?

any help would be greatly appreciated - cheers

~ Tim

Wow, I love that idea. Those models would be great for that CP also. As for the concern on the 'Instinctive Behavior' I am unsure. You would think there would be an acceptable option for a CP game that would resolve this issue. I mean, Genestealers were the primary antagonist in Space Hulk which I view as a KT/CP time game.

I don't have my book here, but isn't there comments about possible alterations to the rules when the don't fit to allow a balanced play without breaking the spirit of the game.

Like Necrons in CP missions not having Phase out as the expectation is there is already a larger force on planet. Maybe the same for Tyranids having a larger force on planet also (which includes a Synapse creature.) Just my thoughts.

When I get home I will have to look over my books, it may have been for a special campaign I remember from the past. Not sure.

As jlong05 says - CP rules say that 'funnies' will arrise & you should use common sense to get round it.

Seeing as it's for a laugh anyway, I doubt that anyone would have a problem with you using a lone warrior, or a broodlord (with only 2 wounds), or a zoanthrope (with a 3+ save).

If all you're doing is playing for sh!ts and giggles there's no point sticking to rules if they screw your game...

cheers for the replies guys.

part of the challenge for me though is working out a way to represent what i want whilst keeping it 100% 'rules-legal' (and if cant do that then i may as well make up homebrew rules instead, which is what im doing for the Stealer Cult).

how about something from FW? is there anything like a synapse beacon that i could use (could represent their food stash etc which they would never abandon) or a lone Synapse creature that fits into CP?

the idea is to be able to make a crazy army (in this case cannibals) whilst still being able to take it to a store or tournament and use it straight out of the box (i.e. no houserules/opponents permission etc).

i suppose i could always take 3 Warriors instead of a Ravener. problem here is that i only really like one of the 2 Gorgers, and i kinda had the idea of the biggest strongest cannibal ruling the pack. Warriors would also be quite slow compared to the Ravener too...

are there any other GW models that could suitably represent cannibals? or any other codex lists that could be more appropriate?

cheers

~ Tim

In that case how about witchhunters?

Elite =][= or priest as 'boss'. A squad of arbites (shotguns to represent crude handguns - more sofisticated canibals) and sisters repentia as psycho loony canibals (fast, strong, but low 'I' with the eviscerators & die by their droves due to rubbish armour saves).

As for cannibals - the Mordheim range (village militia, carnival of chaos & undead(?)) tend to look good - whether they're still available, I haven't checked....

BTW, do CP tournaments actually exist? Sounds a wierd way of playing 40k to me...

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote: if cant do that then i may as well make up homebrew rules instead, which is what im doing for the Stealer Cult

Just checking you know that Mkerr beat you to it
Him and big red are so productive.They create so bad a$$ stuff (see i can get round imaginery swear filters too hammer) I haven't even got round to staring at their necron obolisks yet.
right click save as their genestealer cult codex of wickedness

Ljundhammer wrote:BTW, do CP tournaments actually exist? Sounds a wierd way of playing 40k to me...

yes and they're horrible. Japuda had to make up about 30 different houserules including normal FoC restrictions apply (as in not 5 elites etc) and if your experience at the GT was bad... generally they come with the 4 tornadoes and some scouts, the tau jump forward jump back plas squads etc. So they need massive interventions to stop Mr6 etc eating everyone (chaos can't do CP.. due to all its stuff having too good a save and too many wounds and too good armour.....hay did I just manage to make a moan about chaos being too good
My current one is 500 points
5 rubrics + sorceror with WOC (core advancing troop)
6 marines with 3 flamers in a rhino with 2 bolters (close combat unit)
6 havocs with 4 heavy bolters (anti light aircraft\ anti geq)might need swapping to autocannons

Nice theme tim, really like it.
I can't ever remember anyone putting so much thought into how quickly their army would disintergrate and taking such a perverse delight in it!!!

Personally, I would see 3/4 of my army legging it every turn as a bit of a kick in the nids.

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:are there any other GW models that could suitably represent cannibals? or any other codex lists that could be more appropriate?

How about the mordheim dregs and old wfb ghouls.
If the ghouls ran away would that be a kick in the ghoulies?

I think what I would do, would be to use dark eldar.
They would be quick and fragile which you could explain away with the vagueries of their diet - mutant consuming?

Warriors for bog standard cannibals (splinter rifle range and accuracy is a bit off, but could be understood as them throwing an absolute mountain of crap about).
Sybarites with gruesome talismans - DINNER! and trophy racks! The +1 ld coming as a result of eating a lump of foe and the warm fuzzy feeling that would bring.

How about a warp beast pack for cannibals that have utterly degenerated?

Grotesques seem to fit the bill rather well.

Mandrakes emerging from hidden lairs...

Who is (sort of) in charge of this monstrous mess? Why a haemonoculous of course.

The thing that swings it for me though, is the "prisoners" rule fits nicely with vp's).

We is going to kill you then we is going to eat you!!!

killmaimburn wrote:Just checking you know that Mkerr beat you to it

yeah i know (i already saved a copy for inspiration) .

im not trying to write a Genestealer Cult codex though, just a ready-made list to use as a set force (specifically designed and balanced for CP).

ruffian4 wrote:Nice theme tim, really like it.

cheers

ruffian4 wrote:I can't ever remember anyone putting so much thought into how quickly their army would disintergrate and taking such a perverse delight in it!!!

hehe. well that wasnt quite the plan - my inexperience had fooled me into thinking not having any Synapse in a mostly-Gaunt army wouldnt be too bad.

trying to minimise the effect (or justify the force to myself despite it) happened more after the fact dawned on me.

ruffian4 wrote:Personally, I would see 3/4 of my army legging it every turn as a bit of a kick in the nids.

well i am open to suggestions to try and mitigate it a bit...

ruffian4 wrote:How about the mordheim dregs and old wfb ghouls.

they are cool models, its just i kinda meant models that could be used to represent something different to what could be represented by those new plastics. while they would give me variation in terms of appearance, i dont think they would justify any different unit types (which might actually give the force a fighting chance).

ruffian4 wrote:If the ghouls ran away would that be a kick in the ghoulies?

ruffian4 wrote:I think what I would do, would be to use dark eldar.
They would be quick and fragile which you could explain away with the vagueries of their diet - mutant consuming?

rather brave though, in terms of Ld... although i suppose their cowardly nature could be shown by how they fight (due to fragility they would have to be quite cautious on the tabletop anyway).

ruffian4 wrote:Warriors for bog standard cannibals (splinter rifle range and accuracy is a bit off, but could be understood as them throwing an absolute mountain of crap about).

they will be Fleeting most of the time anway (although it is a shame that they have to have rifles points-wise). close ranged rapid fire would make sense though (throwing debris instead of charging - the cowards that they are).

ruffian4 wrote:Sybarites with gruesome talismans - DINNER! and trophy racks! The +1 ld coming as a result of eating a lump of foe and the warm fuzzy feeling that would bring.

that sounds rather cool actually - and if you look at the link for the new models, they seem to have a sort of champion (my WFB is rusty - would that be a "Ghast"?) with bigger claws and more bones, so an UC with an extra attack and trophies etc would be fine.

ruffian4 wrote:How about a warp beast pack for cannibals that have utterly degenerated?

these models would work as wild mutant dogs: Warhounds of Chaos

although im a bit worried about the Beast Master... i'd have to think up something good to justify the huge Init and the Agoniser (shame he is a compulsory part of the unit). fluffwise though it does make sense to have someone who has (sort of) tamed the mutant dogs that follow the pack around.

ruffian4 wrote:Who is (sort of) in charge of this monstrous mess? Why a haemonoculous of course.

hmm... problem here is that the S3 doesnt really scream "biggest baddest", or justify the Gorger model. the IC rule also wouldnt make much sense, considering how big he is (although this is rumoured to be changing). is there any way to make him Stronger? (i dont know much about DE)

i'd also have to have some Anti-tank CC power.

ruffian4 wrote:The thing that swings it for me though, is the "prisoners" rule fits nicely with vp's).

yes, that does fit rather nicely.

cheers

~ Tim

Witchhunter cannonness with book of st lucius raising the dead......(RRiinng Riiing, splut, whip splurge arrrgh phedoink pehdoink phedoink pehdoink phedoink pehdoink )what was that sound, oh my soul fell out at exactly the same time a fluff nut ran at me with some chainsaws, thankfully the fluff nut tripped over my soul and down the stairs.

killmaimburn wrote:Witchhunter cannonness with book of st lucius raising the dead

well this is different to the Plague Zombies i have homebrewed (and the "puppet-master" psyker lead skeleton force ticking over at the back of my brain) - these are supposed to be (living) subhuman cannibals.

besides, they dont raise the dead (that would be more mouths to feed) - they eat them!

~ Tim

they could always be trying to eat her book
A soritas with a fishing line with a book on the end of it.. leading a load of slavering hungry folks saying "those people there, they have lots of books" (fly casts book of st lucius at some poor hapless chaplin\iterator covered in scrolls and purity seals)

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:although im a bit worried about the Beast Master... i'd have to think up something good to justify the huge Init and the Agoniser (shame he is a compulsory part of the unit). fluffwise though it does make sense to have someone who has (sort of) tamed the mutant dogs that follow the pack around.

If these guys are living out in the ash wastes, they are probably going to be scavengers/ambushers.

With that in mind, how about modelling the pack leader riding on one of the dogs? That keeps him up with their ground speed (which he would normally get from combat drugs).

He could have a rough rider hunting lance to mimic higher initriative/the power weapon/increased wounding power from the agoniser. Though the agoniser would work on after the first round of combat, maybe it is a master crafted lance that once belonged to a rough rider noble.

Or, maybe he is that rough rider noble, degenerated into scum. The warp beasts formerly his fine hunting hounds?
He's starting to sound like special character now!

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:hmm... problem here is that the S3 doesnt really scream "biggest baddest", or justify the Gorger model. the IC rule also wouldnt make much sense, considering how big he is (although this is rumoured to be changing). is there any way to make him Stronger? (i dont know much about DE)

Well, he is tougher and has more wounds than anybody else, which could justify the size of the model.
If he were armed with an agoniser, he could (sort of) be looked at as a not quite so monstrous creature (pow weapon, auto wound).

There is one way to make him stronger (and increase his weapon skill), an animus vitae. This would be quite fluffy too, as to gain the increase, he has to capture someone!

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:i'd also have to have some Anti-tank CC power.

Satchel charges/limpet mines as haywire grenades?
If you just wanted this for the gorger, it's just more biggyness when clobbering vehicles.

ruffian4 wrote:how about modelling the pack leader riding on one of the dogs? That keeps him up with their ground speed (which he would normally get from combat drugs).

the Chaos Hounds arent that big, are they?

besides, the Ash Nomads are going to be riding giant lizards, so i dont want to cross themes too much.

ruffian4 wrote:He could have a rough rider hunting lance to mimic higher initriative/the power weapon/increased wounding power from the agoniser. Though the agoniser would work on after the first round of combat, maybe it is a master crafted lance that once belonged to a rough rider noble.

sticks and stones are going to be it in terms of weapons: these cannibals have been devolving for generations into primitives - they are practically animals (even the loin clothes are pushing it a little).

ruffian4 wrote:Or, maybe he is that rough rider noble, degenerated into scum. The warp beasts formerly his fine hunting hounds?

these guys arent to be confused with the Outcasts i am already planning (who are freed slaves/mutants who have escaped the hive and are roughing it in the wastes, living as scavengers/raiders).

ruffian4 wrote:Well, he is tougher and has more wounds than anybody else, which could justify the size of the model.
If he were armed with an agoniser, he could (sort of) be looked at as a not quite so monstrous creature (pow weapon, auto wound).

ignoring Saves makes sense, but wounding on a 4+ sounds more like a poisoned attack, and im not sure that fits either.

Edit: just checked and a Haemonculus cant have an Agoniser (its not a "Haemonculi only" weapon) - just a Destructor, Scisor Hand or Stinger.

the Scisor Hand could work, with the +1 A representing the creatures 2 clawed hands, and the 2+ to wound representing its massive Strength. this wouldnt help against Vehicles though...

Haywire Grenades could represent the chance of the giant cannibal ripping off a hatch and and gobbling up the crew, or simply shaking the vehicle violently as he bashes on it. i could live with that.

there is also the option of Combat Drugs, which would allow him to move as Cavalry (which is what i was originally looking for) without risking an overdose.

while the Trophy Racks and Animus Vitae seem fluffy, im not sure they are worh it for him (afterall, his Ld is already quite high, and his Strength wont really get used).

so something like this:

Haemonculus: Scisorhand, Combat Drugs, Haywire Grenades = 59 pts

oh BTW, how do Gruesom Talismans work with Multi-wound models? a 2W Haemonculus already counts as 2 models for outnumbering... so does this mean there is no point with GTs, or do the GTs mean they count as 4 models in this regard instead?

ruffian4 wrote:Satchel charges/limpet mines as haywire grenades?

hehe if its not a big rock or pointy stick, then its too high tech for these savages (they make Orks seem civalised!).

cheers

~ Tim
p.s. those Chaos Hounds got me thinking - they could represent Hormagaunts in a Nid "counts as" list. then i noticed the big minimum brood size and the relatively high cost. i may as well use them as Rough Riders! im starting to worry that this might end up using Guard w/Abhumans Doctrines, RRs and Warrior Weapons...

Have you thought of using the Renegades list in IA 5? There's a fair number of possibilities there for you, especially if you just want to use the Crypt Ghouls as Rabble

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:oh BTW, how do Gruesom Talismans work with Multi-wound models? a 2W Haemonculus already counts as 2 models for outnumbering... so does this mean there is no point with GTs, or do the GTs mean they count as 4 models in this regard instead?

4 models (I think). 1 model = 2 wounds, 2 models = 4???

Havent read it yet, so don't know the intricases, but what about orks?

Slugga boyz as cannibals, stormboyz as doggies (think of jump pack move as doggies leaping and bounding over stuff, within reason).

Ordinary leadership but with a pack mentality that (dependant on squad sizes, which seems appropriate) will keep them going.

One time use fleet as the dinner gong goes off!
Furious assault as they unpack all that meaty goodness!

The gorger could be one of the lesser (2w) characters, a power klaw would give him the sort of sub monstrous creature hitting power he warrants.

If the options are available, a jump pack or bike would get him running about pretty quickly...

How about gretchin as little cannibal kiddywinkles!!!