OK everyone. I got my models yesterday and have completed an inventory. I would like to use them in an upcoming GT(May of this year) with a primer event in March. These dates will be my first time ever playing Chaos Marines as I have never owned them before. Based on the models I have received, Here is the 1750pt list I have constructed.

1750 Pts - Chaos Marines Roster - Unnamed

HQ: Daemon Prince (1#, 130 Pts)
1 Daemon Prince @ 130 Pts
Close Combat Weapon; Fearless; Wings

Elite: Chosen (11#, 270 Pts)
9 Chosen @ 270 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x9); Bolter (x5); Close Combat Weapon (x9); Meltagun (x4); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Infiltrate; Rhino
1 Aspiring Champion @ [33] Pts
Bolt Pistol (x1); Bolter (x1); Close Combat Weapon (x1); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Melta Bombs; Infiltrate
1 Rhino @ [35] Pts
Twin Linked Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

Troops: Chaos Space Marines (12#, 250 Pts)
10 Chaos Space Marines @ 250 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Bolter; Meltagun (x1); Lascannon; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Rhino
1 Aspiring Champion @ [35] Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Bolter; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Melta Bombs
1 Rhino @ [35] Pts
Twin Linked Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

Troops: Chaos Space Marines (12#, 250 Pts)
10 Chaos Space Marines @ 250 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Bolter; Meltagun (x1); Lascannon; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Rhino
1 Aspiring Champion @ [35] Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Bolter; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Melta Bombs
1 Rhino @ [35] Pts
Twin Linked Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

Troops: Khorne Berzerkers (8#, 183 Pts)
7 Khorne Berzerkers @ 183 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Fearless; Furious Charge; Mark of Khorne
1 Skull Champion @ [36] Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Fearless; Furious Charge; Mark of Khorne

Fast Attack: Raptors (7#, 180 Pts)
6 Raptors @ 180 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Meltagun (x2); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades
1 Aspiring Champion @ [40] Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Melta Bombs

Heavy Support: Obliterators (3#, 225 Pts)
3 Obliterators @ 225 Pts
Power Fist; Obliterator Weapons; Fearless; Slow and Purposeful

Heavy Support: Predator (1#, 130 Pts)
1 Predator @ 130 Pts
Autocannon; 2 x Lascannon Sponsons; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

Heavy Support: Predator (1#, 130 Pts)
1 Predator @ 130 Pts
Autocannon; 2 x Lascannon Sponsons; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

Total Roster Cost: 1748

Comments and suggestions will be appreciated. Her is a list of remaining models I can include or swap items with.

Chaos Lord(CCW/BP)
Chaos Sorcerer
Greater Daemon(Keeper of Secrets)
2x Khorne Berzerkers
3x Obliterators
4x Havocs(2x ML, 2x HB)
6x Chaos Marines

Also, once we have my final list, and suggestions on tactics would be great a swell. Should I also mention I haven't played 5ed yet either and this GT will be 5ed.

Thanks in advance!

jlong05 wrote:Also, once we have my final list, and suggestions on tactics would be great a swell. Should I also mention I haven't played 5ed yet either and this GT will be 5ed.

Thanks in advance!

Not holding back then!

If you are going to the GT it's worth looking at how other CSM armies at GTs have done.

All top table CSM armies at the UKGTs have had at least 1 lash Daemon Prince, most had 2. To make this work you need blast markers, therefore a swarm of obliterators is normal - it can work with vindicators (not as versatile) or defilers (hard to hide, really not that good).

A quick run through the CSM codex shows tat there are a few gems:

HQs - Winged DP with lash - no brainer, so good, I'd take 2!
HQs - all other HQs pale in comparison to the lash DP

Troops - I like basic CSM with a Mark of Undecided, take 'em in 10's, 2 special weapons & an Asp Champ with a combat weapon (I always use powerfists, but some like power weapons)
Troops - Plague Marines are just plain rude
Troops - the other cult troops are a bit iffy in my opinion wehen you get to GT standard, although Slannesh can work well
Troops - Rhinos - all squads need rhinos - yes they give up KPs, but only 2/3rds of the time & they are useful transports, mobile terrain, enemy troops funnelers - they can do anything! Keep them cheap though, I never buy them anything, a 100pt rhino dies the same as a 35pt rhino.

Elites - Chosen are the same as CSM, but with a MASSIVE target on their heads, ignore them, get more boots
Elites - all other elites are poo

FA - Raptors are ok, but how much better than troops are they for the price? Remember the humble CSM is an elite choice in nearly every other army - use that to your advantage, get loads of them & they score. Some people get good mileage from raptors as a cheap anti-tank squad - keep them focused & you should be ok.
FA - all other FA choices are poo

Heavy - this is where the fun is! Obliterators are a must, or Vindicators are a must, or predators are a must. Depends on the focus of your army, but as I've said - 2 x lash prince + 3x 2 man obliterators, the rest in troops will score highly.
Heavy - Defilers - I'm not sure about these, they are too big to hide, they need the CCWs instead of other guns (let's be honest, you'll be using the boom-boom or fleeting all the time), but when they get to combat they are a bit rubbish. I wiouldn't take them, but some do & do well.

If it were me going to the GT I'd run lash/oblit spam with the rest of the army filled with 10 man CSM squads with 2 x specials & an ASP with powerfist & IoCG in rhinos. It is IMO the most powerful build.

If you do go lash, read some lash tacticas - it does much more than it says on the tin!

Good luck.

James

James,

Cheers for the feedback. I was wondering about the Lash prince. My current model wasn't modeled with the Lash though. I guess I can try updating him to have one though. Was there a specific bit for the Lash?

As for the chosen, I was thinking they could be good in an anti-tank role also. With them being able to have 4+ Meltas in the squad. That was why I chose the Rhino for them. On the plus side, I do have additional Rhino models that I could draft into my Chaos army if needed.

So. My unit of Zerkers isn't really helpful then? I guess I can bench them and look at picking up a box of marines to use as Plague Marines(I was thinking to use standard, but paint in the style of the 'Cleaved' which I think looks cool). I had heard that Plague Marines were very tough to crack.

On the FA side, I think the Raptors as Tank hunters will be good. I did outfit them with 2 meltas which will help that role. I wasn't sure though about the number of them. Is the 7 man squad enough? to little? should I go just a min team of 5 or max to 10?

The Oblits really look like fun. That was why I included them. I do have enough for 2 cult groups and could drop the Chosen and one Pred for it. I guess with the Lash Prince that could work.

.....

So additional thoughts. Is it worth it to add Marks, Powers etc to the DP? what about Marks on the CSM, or for that matter, Marks at all?

Thanks again for the feedback. And please keep it coming.

-John.

I'm not quite sure what you are up to with the champs.
I only really take them to upgrade with pow weap/fist.
+1 a and +1 ld is ok for 15 points, I suppose, but you could get glory for 10 and that would give the oblits a good target if you want to ds them.

The chosen in the rhino will be giving up their main bonus (the only infiltrate unit in the army) and so will be forced to deploy normally or flank march.

I like berserkers but again would want at minimum a pow weap in their (would probably swap the chosens rhino for them too).

Drive by isn't what it was, for normal (non-fast transports, they are now that exactly, transports).

I'd be tempted by doombolt for the ponce, they are tough to hide with see-through trees etc, might as well get a few shots off.

Tbh, I was liking the non-lash thing, I have only taken it once, but it is the dogs b******s!

jlong05 wrote:James,

Cheers for the feedback. I was wondering about the Lash prince. My current model wasn't modeled with the Lash though. I guess I can try updating him to have one though. Was there a specific bit for the Lash?

The lash is a psychic power, so no need for medelling - yay!

jlong05 wrote:As for the chosen, I was thinking they could be good in an anti-tank role also. With them being able to have 4+ Meltas in the squad. That was why I chose the Rhino for them. On the plus side, I do have additional Rhino models that I could draft into my Chaos army if needed.

I agree that they perform a good AT role, however, having 4 meltaguns looks like a little bit of overkill, when 2 will probabley do the job just as well & give a scoring unit.

It's (almost) all about scoring in 5th. A squad that does almost exactly the same damage & is scoring will always be preferable IMO than one that isn't scoring.

jlong05 wrote:So. My unit of Zerkers isn't really helpful then? I guess I can bench them and look at picking up a box of marines to use as Plague Marines(I was thinking to use standard, but paint in the style of the 'Cleaved' which I think looks cool). I had heard that Plague Marines were very tough to crack.

The Zerkers aren't useless. Just not optimal. In a GT army, to give yourself the best chance, you may as well be optimal. As to medelling, if they have the same paint scheme as trhe rest, just sprinkle a couple in normal squads to boost numbers - they have the same equipment after all...

Plague Marines are very good. I think its a personal preference as to whether you take them over IoCG marines - they cost quite a bit more, but you get 2 specials in smaller squadfs & they are harder to kill. I'm ambivilent to be honest.

jlong05 wrote:On the FA side, I think the Raptors as Tank hunters will be good. I did outfit them with 2 meltas which will help that role. I wasn't sure though about the number of them. Is the 7 man squad enough? to little? should I go just a min team of 5 or max to 10?

Depends on what you want them to do. A 5 man squad is likely to die unless you run them behind rhinos. But if you do that, you may as well take the jump packs off & take regular CSMs in a rhino - they are the same speed & they score.

I can't see much that a raptor squad can do thaty a CSM squad can't, apart from charge after moving 12". That benefit, to me, says lightning claws & a squad killing squad. But honestly I'd stick to CSMs. I like Raptors, but I don't think they are optimal...

jlong05 wrote:The Oblits really look like fun. That was why I included them. I do have enough for 2 cult groups and could drop the Chosen and one Pred for it. I guess with the Lash Prince that could work.

Oblits are pure chedder. Take loads of them. Rather than 2 units of 3, I'd take 3 units of 2. If 2 oblits don't work, you can shoot with a different squad. If the firast squad do the job, then you can shoot at a different target.

In fact at 1750, I'd take 3 units of 3, but I know you are limited by models...

jlong05 wrote:So additional thoughts. Is it worth it to add Marks, Powers etc to the DP? what about Marks on the CSM, or for that matter, Marks at all?

The DPs need wings, MoS & lash, nothing else, keep 'em cheap. On the troops IoCG is awesome, especially as you don't have ATSKNF. Most of the other marks are overpriced IMO.

jlong05 wrote:Thanks again for the feedback. And please keep it coming.

-John.

You are welcome...

If I was going for a competative army for CSM at 750 it would look like this:

HQ1: DP - 155pts
DP - wings, MoS, lash

HQ2: DP - 155pts
DP - wings, MoS, lash

Troop1: CSM - 265pts
Asp champ - powerfist
9 x CSM - plasma gun x 2, IoCG
Rhino

Troop2: CSM - 220pts
Asp champ - power weapon
9 x CSM - plasma gun x 2, IoCG

Troop3: CSM - 245pts
Asp champ - powerfist
9 x CSM - flamer x 2, IoCG
Rhino

Troop4: CSM - 255pts
Asp champ - powerfist
9 x CSM - melta gun x 2, IoCG
Rhino

Heavy1: Obliterators - 150pts
2 x obliterators

Heavy2: Obliterators - 150pts
2 x obliterators

Heavy3: Obliterators - 150pts
2 x obliterators

That's 1745 points of optimised chaos. Feel free to swap out the CSM squads for Plague marines as you see fit...

Hope that gives you an idea of what you'll be facing!

James

OK, if he is going GT and optimal, how do you handle an opposing lash csm army?

estarriol wrote:OK, if he is going GT and optimal, how do you handle an opposing lash csm army?

You got me there...

Get first turn & lash one of his princes first?
Hide, or start off the board & take 2nd turn?

I don't know - anyone else?

I have moved away from DPs and now field two lash sorcerers attached to death guard 2xmeltagun & PF squads in rhinos. I keep the units in their rhinos as long as feasable, allowing me to lash freely via the firing point (and take a meltagun shot), which can be annoying to any player trying to close in - especially if they are using a lash DP.

While I miss my DPs, I found difficulty in supporting and defending them. I can keep my lashes on the table so much longer with the T5 feelin'-no-pain death guard buffer. Now I can field all my units in vehicles (with the exception of obliterators). If you plan on going heavy with predators, defilers or vindicators, you can deploy a 1750 point list with no infantry targets on the table. This can be frustrating to your opponent if they spend one or more rounds without being able to utilize their anti-infantry firing (or assault, for that matter).

If you care, my 1750 lists typically include a third troop squad, either CSMs with MoK, melta x2 and power fist or Noise Marines with doom siren and power weapon. This squad is placed in a land raider, which acts as the screen for the two DG/lash sorcerer rhinos. Oblits or a 20-model lesser daemon squad usually rounds it out.

I hope that is helpful.

Ljundhammer wrote:I don't know - anyone else?

I've hardly ever played against Chaos. None of my lot have it as a main army. I can't remember the last time I saw the "club" chaos army come out to play. I've never even seen the lash being used! Maybe I should dig it out and play a game with it.

Basically, I'm no help to you whatsoever so ignore this post...move along...

nojinx wrote:I have moved away from DPs and now field two lash sorcerers...

I had contemplated the Sorcerer as that is the other model I have. I may play with that as an optional list addition as that saves me the cost of buying another DP.

Also I noticed a lot of flak to those dual-lash DP players. Something about cheddar. Now I haven't ever played, but is that setup really 'that' killer and unstoppable as online sites(BoLS) is making it out to be? Also, what is the boredom factor of playing these lists? I guess I don't understand why people say it's boring to play/oppose as it's still a game of tactics and such.

Oh well. I haven't played in a GT for 40k. This will be an Indy GT though so I think this year will mainly be local players as it isn't a tournament scene event yet.

Thanks again for the comments. I will post up another list soon with my changes. I also want to get some pics of the models as they really do look good.

On a side note. Is it 'worth' it to buy new bases for all the models to get a standard theme? I saw on ebay a place selling lava themed resin bases. Are they any good or even worth the purchase? Would I be better off modeling on my current bases and painting them up?

I think a load of themed bases would look great.

BTW - are most tournaments 1750 now? I thought 1500 was the norm? Why the change in points?

I am unsure. That just happens to be the total points for the Indy GT here. Also I think the UK GT circuit and the US GT circuit use different numbers. I know that is the case for LotR at least(US = 600pt, UK = 700pt).

nojinx wrote:I have moved away from DPs and now field two lash sorcerers attached to death guard 2xmeltagun & PF squads in rhinos. I keep the units in their rhinos as long as feasable, allowing me to lash freely via the firing point (and take a meltagun shot), which can be annoying to any player trying to close in - especially if they are using a lash DP.

It's not a bad tactic, certainly one I haven't seen - so it should have a 'shock and awe' effect on the opponent However, when it comes down to it, 40k is about smashing heads in combat - as your opponent, I'd be much happier if you had a sorcerer in a squad than a DP in combat with me.

Also, the DPs are much more flexible, in that should your 2 lashes not work too well, or work very well, you have the ption of using the oblits to shoot something else then charge with a DP or 2. You can't do that with sorcerers in rhinos.

jlong05 wrote:I had contemplated the Sorcerer as that is the other model I have. I may play with that as an optional list addition as that saves me the cost of buying another DP.

Also I noticed a lot of flak to those dual-lash DP players. Something about cheddar. Now I haven't ever played, but is that setup really 'that' killer and unstoppable as online sites(BoLS) is making it out to be? Also, what is the boredom factor of playing these lists? I guess I don't understand why people say it's boring to play/oppose as it's still a game of tactics and such.

Yes the 2 x lash DPs really are that good. So much so that most tacticas in Dakka/Warseer have dedicated parts of them explaining the best ways to stop it (most say "go mech"). They are rediculously undercosted & overpowered when taken with obliterator spam.

As to it being boring - how many games is this tournament? I don't think I could get bored with an army in less than 10 games unless I had a specific reason for it being boring (for example only one possible play style). The 2 x DP route is flexible enough that you can use the lash to different effect in every shooting phase, never mind every game.

As to cheese - it's a frelling tournament - what do you expect? The point of a tournament is to find the best player with the best army. I take DeathWing to tournaments because it complements my play-style & is the army I'm best with - many, many players do this. The top players take the best army & adapt their play style to fit it - a good army with a bad general will still lose.
If someone is routinely bring 2 x lash DPs to friendly games, then they won't have friends for very long - I've never taken a 2 x lash army as I've never used it in a tournament & to my eyes 2 x lash DPs in a friendly game is plain rude (one is bad enough, but I still use it ). Being called 'cheese' is usually because a) the other person's army isn't good enough to beat your army, b) the other person isn't a good enough general to beat your army, c) you have taken a cookie cutter of units that are known to be overpowered (2 x lash DPs with obliterator spam, 2 x flying seer council, 2 x nob bikers (actually, just orks )).
A tournament is no place to be worried about being called cheese. Everything is fair unless you cheat - I don't think you'd do that, so what's the problem?

nojinx wrote:If you care, my 1750 lists typically include a third troop squad, either CSMs with MoK, melta x2 and power fist or Noise Marines with doom siren and power weapon. This squad is placed in a land raider, which acts as the screen for the two DG/lash sorcerer rhinos. Oblits or a 20-model lesser daemon squad usually rounds it out.

You take 2 x lashes an no obliterators? That's fine and dandy, but removes some of the best things that the lash does & is unlikely to win you tournaments (unless you subsitiute for vindi's etc.). The Land Raider in my eyes doesn't fit. The 2 x lash army is concentrated on destroying te enemy army, the Land Raider doesn't kill enough & will be ignored by players who can in favour of killing lashes.

Ok, I've said my piece. Good luck John.

OK. I am working on redoing my possible GT list, but I have what may be a stupid question. If a unit has a Mark(Say Plague Marines) which have the Mark of Nurgle, is this the same as the icon of Nurgle? Also if it is the same, then does that mean that the option to get a personal icon is a waste as the icon of Nurgle provides that same ability?

Quick answer: no and no.

Marks on the cult troops (Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Berzerkers and Thousand Suns) are only that - marks. You would need to purchase an icon to be able to summon lesser daemons with that unit.

Icons are options provided to some units. The icons confer Marks as described in the codex.

Besides the marks they confer, icons' only function is to provide a focal point for summoning/deep striking the following:
lesser daemons
terminators
obliterators

The above units do not deviate when summoned or deepstriking to an icon.