After recent bouts of invoking the spirit of Jervis during games, I decided based on this thread to invoke the spirit of killmaimburn and plan some lists for the WHW weekend a little further in advance than normal. Apart from the required Apoc one I'll do a mix of 1500 point lists, some serious, others real "what-if" ones and post them here so people can decide which they would like to play*. Of course, I'll not have played with any of them before the weekend either**

This is just a place holder for now...until I actually make the lists. 2 days left in current job... bugger all to do... might do them tomorrow at some point

*are we just pandering to each other now? Would anyone like to see my dice and pick which ones I use

lists to follow....please wait....

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** even the "serious" lists will not be kbm optimized ones as I'll be limited to what I've got painted... and I don't have 6 attack bikes and 3 2xHB landspeeders....

mattjgilbert wrote:*are we just pandering to each other now? Would anyone like to see my dice and pick which ones I use

** even the "serious" lists will not be kbm optimized ones as I'll be limited to what I've got painted... and I don't have 6 attack bikes and 3 2xHB landspeeders....

Your fab matt
2 quick points before you list..
1) I think folks would like to pick what dice I use this time after King called me a cheat for using the dice I bought off spack that passed 6 invulnerables with no loss.(repeat) I'm willing to share dice with folks and use one set (our lot I let choose whether we all roll high or all roll low, no half ways, no picking dice for differenct circumstances and both folks use the same set):D
2)This space is reserved for KBM to optimise , a friendly opponent in a friendly game will always let you proxy and counts-as around the place so you can explore a codex without having to invest so much time and money before making informed views on them(I don't care if they have dev decals on their shoulders )

mattjgilbert wrote:bugger all to do...

Except drink it seems. Hmmm... much beer = lacking in the ability to think enough to care much about making lists. Think I'll wait until tonight...

killmaimburn wrote:2)This space is reserved for KBM to optimise , a friendly opponent in a friendly game will always let you proxy and counts-as around the place so you can explore a codex without having to invest so much time and money before making informed views on them(I don't care if they have dev decals on their shoulders )

Oh but my OCD will kick in and prevent such shenanigans - one wrong decal in one squad might slip into a list but beyond that I tend to drive off of cliffs. I think I need help (or more beer; I'm open to either... although the latter is far more appealing).

Matt, I'm up for a game sunday or if we both finish our big games saturday in time, we can play after them.

SM v SM - ?

yeah of course

Failed last night on the list front. AB uninstalled today from my work laptop as I clear down stuff on my last day here. Off to my father-in-laws for the weekend so will not get these done until Monday now.

OK here are some hastily hacked together 1500 point lists. Only one is road tested (the LRaider just one against the renegages....although the renegades pretty much won the game for the marines by missing everything in sight). Remember choices are limited to what's painted so suggestions of "add some stern guard" aren't going to help as they are not painted!


List 1
Vindicator
Predator + HBs
10 x Dev squad with 4 HBs
2 Attack bikes with MM
5 bikes with melta, PG and serg with pwr wpn
10 x tac + HB, MG + PF (+razorback)
10 x tac + LC, MG + PF (+razorback)
Captain, SB, relic blade, melta bombs.
Speeder, HB and Flamer.


List 2
Vindicator
Thunderfire Cannon+
10 x Dev squad with 4 HBs
10 x tac + LC, MG + PF (+razorback)
10 x tac + ML, MG + PF (+razorback)
Captain, LC, JP
10 assault marines with 2 flamers and PF
1 Attack bike with MM
1 Attack bike with MM

+yeah I know it'll die first turn but I like the model...


List 3 (I fancy taking my new LR and some dreads)
Captain, SB, relic blade, artificer arm.
Command squad with apoc and comp champ (+razorback)
Dreadnought with ass cannon
Dreadnought with LC and ML
5 scouts (snipers and HB)
10 x tac + HB, MG + PF (+rhino)
1 Attack bike with MM
1 Attack bike with MM
Predator + HBs
Land Raider
5 scouts


What if...I try and take a shed load of heavy weapons?
5 devs with 4 plasma cannons
5 devs with 3 LCs and MM
Pred with LCs
10 x tac + LC, PG + PF (+razorback+LC)
10 x tac + ML, MG + PF (+razorback+LC)
Chaplain + jump pack
7 assault marines (PF + flmr)
Attack bike with MM
Attack bike with MM



what if...I try and take infantry with barrage support?
Whirlwind
Vindicator
Thunderfire Cannon
10 x tac + ML, MG + PF (+rhino)
10 x tac + ML, Flmr + PF (+rhino)
10 x tac + PG, LC
5 scouts (snipers and HB)
Chaplain, JP, MBombs
10 x assault marines, 2 flamers, PF
Speeder, MM + HB (would like to have taken typhoon for the theme but don't have one )



Comments welcome but otherwise those are the lists I'll bring with me. I'll also knock toegther a couple of CP ones (400 and 500 points) and of course I've still to do the apoc one...

they all seem fine to me.. which do you prefer?

in my game at Dan's club against the UM, i found the Thunderfire to be quite resilient actually - the 2+ Armour Save on the Crew combined with the 3+ Cover Save for the unit as a whole (bolstered ruin), plus T4/AV10 arent exactly automatically beaten either.

the first 2 turns it scored 21 hits each time it fired, too.

~ Tim

They all look fine.

Quick query through. Your weapon load outs on the tactical squads look really weird to my eyes:

Firstly you have an uber long range weapon and a melta gun - if your not CPing it looks like 10 points wasted. If you are CPing, you'll need to rhino drive by to get the MG in range, in which case you lose the only real advantage over the plasma gun - the assault weapon profile. I've never understood taking melta's over plasmas in line squads. If you stand still the plasma also gets to shoot the same thing as your bolt guns.

Secondly - why the missile launcher? It's a kind of jack of all trades, master of none. It's fairly poor at taking out heavy tanks, meaning you are limited to reliably taking out transports only. It's poor at taking out troops - krak kills one per turn at best & frag is either hitting IG huddled in cover, so they get a 4+, or the opponent is running at you & is properly spaced, so you're likely only to get 2 max. I always run a specialised weapon in a squad - you have anti-horde in the 4xHB devestators (a unit I love), so why not a lascannon (or MM if points-pinching) to reliably take out tanks?

Other than that the rest of the lists have the following comments:
Bikes are rubbish, they are expensive tactical squads, use the FA slots to get stuff that tacticals can't do.
ICs belong in squads, artificer looks extravagent & is extravagent.
Never take vehicles or dreads in ones. Most SM AV units have a law of increasing returns (I omit the Land Raider which is the opposite after you get 2 at 1500). One dread is easy to kill, 3 causes brown pants - same for vindis & preds.
Assault marines in 5s are very, very fragile - I always take at least 8 and attach an IC - there's nothing like being sure. Adding a PF to a 5 man squad is even riskier, one round of dedicated shooting and the squad is useless.

That said, I think they're all fine, there's no glaring problems with them, just personal preference I guess.

KInG wrote:they all seem fine to me.. which do you prefer?

I posted them so you could decide which you prefered to play against

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:in my game at Dan's club against the UM, i found the Thunderfire to be quite resilient actually - the 2+ Armour Save on the Crew combined with the 3+ Cover Save for the unit as a whole (bolstered ruin), plus T4/AV10 arent exactly automatically beaten either.

the first 2 turns it scored 21 hits each time it fired, too.

~ Tim

Yeah it was awesome in my first few games but in the last one or two opponents made it target number one and only need a glancing hit...

Ljundhammer wrote:Quick query through. Your weapon load outs on the tactical squads look really weird to my eyes:

Firstly you have an uber long range weapon and a melta gun - if your not CPing it looks like 10 points wasted.

It was like that with CPing in mind.

Ljundhammer wrote:If you are CPing, you'll need to rhino drive by to get the MG in range, in which case you lose the only real advantage over the plasma gun - the assault weapon profile. I've never understood taking melta's over plasmas in line squads. If you stand still the plasma also gets to shoot the same thing as your bolt guns.

Yeah but I like meltas and how they look (silly reason isn't it). Plus PGs I take tend to kill themselves....

Ljundhammer wrote:Secondly - why the missile launcher?

Because that's what I have mostly painted up for my tac squads

Ljundhammer wrote:so why not a lascannon

I have one tac one painted up so I'd have to see if I could find the points. I need to get more of them and some MMs.

Ljundhammer wrote:Bikes are rubbish, they are expensive tactical squads, use the FA slots to get stuff that tacticals can't do.

really? I've always had good success with them...

Ljundhammer wrote:ICs belong in squads, artificer looks extravagent & is extravagent.

Safety net and paranoia probably. I tend to roll 2s for saves at the wrong time... I could look at rejigging it and saving points.

Ljundhammer wrote:Never take vehicles or dreads in ones. Most SM AV units have a law of increasing returns (I omit the Land Raider which is the opposite after you get 2 at 1500). One dread is easy to kill, 3 causes brown pants - same for vindis & preds.

Again...limited to what I have available/painted. Multiple dreads I can do (although with limited availablility on weapon choices. I have 2 preds but one is currently fixed having las cannons. I've only got one each of vindicator and whirlwind.

Ljundhammer wrote:Assault marines in 5s are very, very fragile - I always take at least 8 and attach an IC - there's nothing like being sure. Adding a PF to a 5 man squad is even riskier, one round of dedicated shooting and the squad is useless.

Yeah I usually take more for those reasons but thought I'd give it a go. I may take your advice though.

Let me have a play with a couple of those lists. Cheers James.

Lists have been Ljundhammered a little. Edits in post #7.

LIST1
Drop the flamer on the speeder, the plasma gun on the bikes and the storm bolter 3 on the captain try to find 5 more points.. put the captain on a bike so that if you have to take bikes they are a troops choice.
if not looks reasonable..although with the points drop..I'd take 4 missiles and drop the ablatives to add more razorbacks..(heavy bolters) instead

List 2
Funny, I can't put my finger on it..but it doesn't sound as awesome to me as it should

list 3
Thats incredibly top heavy for something that doesn't have 10 terminators in. I'd be tempted to put the command squad in the landraider and the scouts in the razorback in game Might be resilent..Would melt against big heavy weapon lists..

"What if...I try and take a shed load of heavy weapons?"you only have 15 my version had 25 ..
"barrage support?"
you have 2 weapons that can hurt landraider and they will both die quickly, don't play against deathwing with this one

they look nice
Convention is against the missile launcher as LH says but partly thats because he lives in 2+ street. A lot of folks are going back to it..and saying the only reliable anti tank are multimelta on bikes if your cheap , or on speeders..if you want them to live.


10 man 4 heavy bolters- i would across the board switch to.. 5man 4 missile 1 sargenet+ either a dakka pred (autocannon heavy bolter) or a razorback and sped XX amounts elsewhere. 5 ablatives just don't work so well now everything is selected.. the new future is "oh my god I really need to kill X.. but I have this fargargle gargargle right in my face, and theres a AP2 cannon pointed right at 30 men and oh nooeeessss!".. thats how you make dev squads live in 5th ed.

killmaimburn wrote:LIST1
Drop the flamer on the speeder, the plasma gun on the bikes and the storm bolter 3 on the captain try to find 5 more points.. put the captain on a bike so that if you have to take bikes they are a troops choice.
if not looks reasonable..although with the points drop..I'd take 4 missiles and drop the ablatives to add more razorbacks..(heavy bolters) instead

Don't have the models to do those... and the captain model has a storm bolter... I don't have one on a bike...

killmaimburn wrote:list 3
Thats incredibly top heavy for something that doesn't have 10 terminators in. I'd be tempted to put the command squad in the landraider and the scouts in the razorback in game Might be resilent..Would melt against big heavy weapon lists..

It beat a chaos ordnace AP1 chucker-2 leman russ-8 LC-melta gun force last night and only lost 1RB, 5 scouts and 3 marines. Granted, Jon couldn't hit a barn door and every damage roll on a vehicle was a 1 but still... and the command squad was in the LR

killmaimburn wrote:"What if...I try and take a shed load of heavy weapons?"you only have 15 my version had 25 ..

Yeah...but it's what I have painted

i'll fight the hardest one please... if you are not sure which is the hardest one then let the guys choose the list they want me to fight