Ok, here we are again. And this year's choice is IG.

Having read the codex now and learning all about the new army choices I was pleased to see all my FW turrets appear in the normal codex, and the awsome Valkyrie. But what really got me excited was the 3 twin linked lascannons!!! The Vendetta has the the mech army's worst nightmare and as everone seems to be playing more transports and armour in general coz of the 5th ed changes, I thought..." I'll take 3 "

Then looking through and thinking about all those troops getting blown out of the transports, I stumbled on the Punisher. We heard about this tank long before the codex came out, the tank that fires 20 shots. Stick 3 HBs on them, that's 29 shots!... I thought.... " cool, I'll take 3 "

But with all that I need troops, coz "troops win the game", and what do I see: Veterans are now a troop choice. BS4 and can take 3 special weapons. So I tot up my points and find I still have enough for 4 Vets squads, 1 w/ 3 melta (Land Raiders / MCs), 1 w/ 3xPlasma (light armour and high toughness/armour), 1 w/ 2xflamers (hordes) and last one with; absolutely nothing (tank protection, assault bait).

Leaving me with 140 points for a command squad w/ melta and an officer of the fleet and Pask in a Punisher (re roll wounds on MCs, +1 arm pen on vehicles; BS4).

But then I thought...(lot's of thought has already gone into this as you can see)... +1 armour pen. Wow, how cool would it be to drop a HB on Pask's tank and give it a lascannon: S10 arm pen!!! So i dropped the command squad's melta and a flamer to give me:

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1500 Pts - 5th Edition Roster - 1500 GT

HQ: Company Command Squad (6#, 80 Pts)
4 Company Command Squad; 1 Company Commander; 1 Officer of the Fleet

Troops: Veteran Squad #1 (10#, 100 Pts)
9 Veteran Squad @ 100 Pts Meltagun (x3);
1 Veteran Sergeant Close Combat Weapon

Troops: Veteran Squad #2 (10#, 115 Pts)
9 Veteran Squad @ 115 Pts Plasmagun (x3);
1 Veteran Sergeant Close Combat Weapon

Troops: Veteran Squad #3 (10#, 80 Pts)
9 Veteran Squad Flamer (x2)
1 Veteran Sergeant Close Combat Weapon

Troops: Veteran Squad #4 (10#, 70 Pts)
9 Veteran Squad Lasgun (x9)
1 Veteran Sergeant Close Combat Weapon

FA: Vendetta Gunship #1 (1#, 130 Pts) Extra Armor; Searchlight; Twin-linked Lascannon (x3)
FA: Vendetta Gunship #1 (1#, 130 Pts) Extra Armor; Searchlight; Twin-linked Lascannon (x3)
FA: Vendetta Gunship #1 (1#, 130 Pts) Extra Armor; Searchlight; Twin-linked Lascannon (x3)

HS: LR Punisher #1 (1#, 265 Pts) Punisher Gatling Cannon; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon; Heavy Bolter Sponsons (x2);
1 Knight Commander Pask @ [50] Pts

HS: LR Punisher #1 (1#, 200 Pts) Punisher Gatling Cannon; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Hull Heavy Bolter; Heavy Bolter Sponsons (x2);
HS: LR Punisher #1 (1#, 200 Pts) Punisher Gatling Cannon; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Hull Heavy Bolter; Heavy Bolter Sponsons (x2);

Total Roster Cost: 1500
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Now I hear what your saying; "265points for a tank, that's more than a Raider Crusader!" and yes, you would be right of course. But, if you try this fella out one day, you will see, he does way more damage than a LRC any game And I afford him the protection he deserves also. I usually play him flanked by the other two tanks, with an 'assault breaking' line of guardsmen and command squad infront of them so any assaulting unit, hits and kills/breaks them, who then get shot to crap by the three tanks and any vets nearby

So, what's your initial thoughts. My worry is that my fearsome Vendettas are my transports. Loose them and I'm pretty much on foot. Three lucky auto cannons shots could really ruin my day

Why are you bothering with heavy bolter sponsons on your tanks - are you planning to keep them still? That's asking for trouble, the Punisher only has 24" range (and at S5 will be wasted against the tanks you'll be firing the lascannon at), and with AP- all the infantry will get saving throws against it.

Personally, I'd put Pask in a Vanquisher where his BS4 greatly improves the chance of hitting, and put a lascannon on that (so you have 2 anti tank weapons firing, better chance of taking vehicles down). With 20 shots a BS3 Punisher will still be useful, stick to a heavy bolter on the hull so it's anti-infantry (sponsons are only of use if you think you'll be taking more than 2 weapon destroyed results or standing still, the enemy will take out the Punisher first leaving you only able to fire the heavy bolter on it's own when moving).

Punishers will stop rhinos quite easily. Ive had a BS3 normal Punisher stop and destroy Rhinos quite regulary, but pask is S6 against them, he pens them easily. But hes primarily an infantry killer. That lassie he has is a terror weapon more than anything else.

Pask would be wasted firing 2 shots a turn I feel, that would be 2 re rolls max against a MC. No, the Punishers are all infantry and light armour. Vendettas are the Anti tank guys in my list, backed up by the melta dudes in Vet squad.

Spack I think u read my list before I edited it. I dont have lassies on all Punishers, they are HBs and just Pask has a lassie.

KInG wrote:HQ: Company Command Squad (6#, 80 Pts)
4 Company Command Squad; 1 Company Commander; 1 Officer of the Fleet

CHeap and will F*%* with stuff right and proper but if your not in a chimera..you can't order from a spaceship, so your on foot? I know something thats going down turn 1.Whats the point in that?Expand please?

KInG wrote:Troops: Veteran Squad #1 (10#, 100 Pts)
9 Veteran Squad @ 100 Pts Meltagun (x3);
1 Veteran Sergeant Close Combat Weapon

Troops: Veteran Squad #2 (10#, 115 Pts)
9 Veteran Squad @ 115 Pts Plasmagun (x3);
1 Veteran Sergeant Close Combat Weapon

Solid core I take it the naked-ish ones cower in transports all day long?

Are you at all tempted by demolitions upgrade.. for some qusi drop templatey death?

KInG wrote:FA: Vendetta Gunship #1 (1#, 130 Pts) Extra Armor; Searchlight; Twin-linked Lascannon (x3)

The cheese, I think I described it to Antubis as.. Imagine a tri las pred, where all three are twinlinked.. now imagine that it doesn't fill a heavy slot, now imagine that can not only move and shoot, but move 12" and still shoot one weapon, now imagine it can carry troops, can move 24" hold an objective and get a cover save like eldar..now imagine its 35 points cheaper than your currently paying... now imagine...(I think he'd misted up by this point
Folks with more money than talent will definitly be spamming them and pretending they always liked FW and loved guard and (actually they'll be wearing impossible mission spack-u-like masks I've whipped up, (see downtime thread) to try to steal spacks cool)

KInG wrote:HS: LR Punisher #1 (1#, 265 Pts) Punisher Gatling Cannon; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon; Heavy Bolter Sponsons (x2);
1 Knight Commander Pask @ [50] Pts

Really dude..me and LH have decided they are poo..unless going against a footslogging geq in the open, without a KFF.
+1 armour pen and a lascannon? So your choosing to standstill then going for a target that only one of its weapon may penetrate and your still reliant on BS4 to make that whole turn worthwhile..its not exactly a landraider immobiliser is it.
Mathhammers-
Basic model punisher we worked out (and also as we saw in game)on move, 11.5 hits, . 7.6 wounds on meq, but only 2.55 unsaved.ORR 1.9 glances on a rhino.
Stood still (as in assuming the enemy is running towards you) only 14.5 hits 9.66 wounds 3.22 unsaved, ( 2.4 glances on a rhino)
BS 4 super special on move anti infantry 13.3,8.86 wounds 2.99 unsaved +0.555 from the lascannon auto deaded if target are in open too) 2.2 glances (+0.66 of getting a glance or better from las)

So I see this very funny situation where pask kills a rhino, then your 2 remaining punishers kill 6 of the 10 man squad (maybe taking out the heavy weapon)..of course thats not what your going to do.. but it shows the weakness in the punisher quite nicely.

I admit that thats rather shoddy maths.. one thing - as you say its all about the mech and I'm working it all out by the meq..But if your taking it for those glances on the rhinos?? Meh .. Your being carried by your Vendettas

Don't forget if your taking 3 in a cock block to use my cheese of 3+ cover save anglage..Awesome cheese is awesome.

Other awesome stuff you might have a bash at and see if it fits-- Psyker battle squad + 4 more psykers + chimera 155ish..-8 to leadership for a turn =Everything runs away Marbo (or callidus Marbo as I call him) doesn't actually kill much but makes your opponents really worried about spreading to get to your targets. I'd be tempted to have a game against one of your crew dump the 3rd punisher and fit both those units in..just to see if you like them.

KInG wrote:1500 Pts - 5th Edition Roster - 1500 GT

HQ: Company Command Squad (6#, 80 Pts)
4 Company Command Squad; 1 Company Commander; 1 Officer of the Fleet

Troops: Veteran Squad #1 (10#, 100 Pts)
9 Veteran Squad @ 100 Pts Meltagun (x3);
1 Veteran Sergeant Close Combat Weapon

Troops: Veteran Squad #2 (10#, 115 Pts)
9 Veteran Squad @ 115 Pts Plasmagun (x3);
1 Veteran Sergeant Close Combat Weapon

Troops: Veteran Squad #3 (10#, 80 Pts)
9 Veteran Squad Flamer (x2)
1 Veteran Sergeant Close Combat Weapon

Troops: Veteran Squad #4 (10#, 70 Pts)
9 Veteran Squad Lasgun (x9)
1 Veteran Sergeant Close Combat Weapon

FA: Vendetta Gunship #1 (1#, 130 Pts) Extra Armor; Searchlight; Twin-linked Lascannon (x3)
FA: Vendetta Gunship #1 (1#, 130 Pts) Extra Armor; Searchlight; Twin-linked Lascannon (x3)
FA: Vendetta Gunship #1 (1#, 130 Pts) Extra Armor; Searchlight; Twin-linked Lascannon (x3)

HS: LR Punisher #1 (1#, 265 Pts) Punisher Gatling Cannon; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon; Heavy Bolter Sponsons (x2);
1 Knight Commander Pask @ [50] Pts

HS: LR Punisher #1 (1#, 200 Pts) Punisher Gatling Cannon; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Hull Heavy Bolter; Heavy Bolter Sponsons (x2);
HS: LR Punisher #1 (1#, 200 Pts) Punisher Gatling Cannon; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Hull Heavy Bolter; Heavy Bolter Sponsons (x2);

Total Roster Cost: 1500

Things I would worry about:
1. 5 infantry units, 3 transports. All your men, once out of tanks (or starting out of tanks) will die very quickly. I'd want them in transports, chimeras are awesome as mobile bunkers, a 10 man squad with no save against boltguns (or a 4+ cover save) will be dieing & breaking quickly. This is exaserbated when you have 3 in reserve, so the other 2 will take all the anti-personell fire immediately. Given that you are tactical genius, I'm sure you know this & have a sutiably cunning plan...

2. Mix of units. Your scoring units are doing the killing - especially the melta guys - why not keep them naked and give the meltas to the command squad - you don't care if they die AND you get to order 'Bring it down' for certain Land Raider death! Also plasma on non-carapace vets is not good in my eyes. You'll never be standing still to get the 24" range, if you are in 12" you are dead (rapid firing bolt guns will murder you), the plasma is expensive & can kill you - melta is preferable (can kill more things), you only lose 3 shots, can destroy any tank in the game. You have enough anti-MEq with the russes (see below) and lascannons - perhaps grenade launchers might be better?

3a. Punishers - they are crap. Utterly crap. Short range, can't hurt tanks (remember that the gattling cannon is AP- which means -1 to the damage table for the rhinos you expect to kill). A normal Leman Russ is less points, will kill more MEq & horde (getting a large horde into standard anti-boom-boom pattern is tricky), is better at stopping tanks (not that that should worry you with the amount of lascannons/ melta), and has a range so large that it is difficult to get to (through your valkarie screen). I'd drop Pask, drop the punishers to Lemans and then add some griffons if you fancy for more pie-plate action, or chimeras for the naked vets, or more valkeries.

3b. Sponsons - not worth it, I very rarely have tanks sitting still. Once you get in game, neither will you. 2 heavy bolters at BS3, or 2 melta guns at BS4 (on the vets)? I know what I'd pick!

4. Officer of the fleet - why? Get an astropath - he'll get your valkeries on when & where you need them (he doesn't need to be on the field to work) & has better synergy should you melta up on the HQ. Both might work well, but is very pricey.

Hope that helps...

damn AP - is -1 on table. I totally forgot about that....

but that doesn't matter still.

i love reading your feedback guys, it really helps me with the tactics, thanks.

basically the vets are never seen, they just deliver the killer punch at the right time depending on the opponent and field. my command usually starts behind the three tanks, not seen. my naked vets with them to break down any charge on tanks. The command squad gives two orders; one each; take cover, for the 2+ cover save, so they eat shots for breaffast and still carry out their role.

if theres a big tank on the field the melta vets die 1st. if theres a MC bearing down then the plasma die 1st... horses for courses. but generally, what they shoot at with the support of either the vendettas or the tanks (armour / infantry) is not usually there to shoot back at my vets. they jump back up into their transport and carry on.

the vets always start in the transports. i thought about the 3 meltas in the command squad, but i want my troops mobile. and safer with armour around them. the vendettas are usually firing at range, moving only 6" a time for max firepower. the vets sometimes never even see the game. Im thinking of jut painting 30 as ive never had more than that out at any time. if the opponent makes me go 1st, i can scout the vendettas to get into prime spots an great good lines of fire. if i go 2nd i ma choose to outflank them to allow them to shoot 1st again. Unless its DOW when they fly on spot enemy with searchlights and allow the punishers to let rip 1st turn.

Punishers and Pask: As I said, their primary role is infantry. I did the maths just like urselves, but when u times those results by three and add Pask in also with his extra wounds caused, we are talking about a full SM unit dieing every turn. That's 200points almsot. Also, as I have discovered from my recent games, usually the 1 or 2 that might be left, if he's lucky, are not the ones carry PF or Melta

I play the tanks close together; very close together, at 1st... In this way my small infantry unit can protect them and they offer fire support to each other. If they all concentrate their fire on one target, it will not survive!!! The fact they are rolling dice and not relying on a pie plate that hits one in three times, makes the world of difference. As for the sponsons, 36" range, they fire many times more than my Vet's meltas. In my games my tanks always try to remain stationary. After everything else has shot they mop up. Having not moved they not only get to fire everything, but can turn and choose their target. If the vets and vendettas do their work, and blow men from transports, my tanks can now face that transport and blow the troops to hell

That's cool, as long as you have a plan.

All I'm going to say is that I'd rather face this army than the Daemons or Space Marines you took last year...

if we don't play in the GT saturday, then let's play that night, instead of running home. so get on with the pink ticket approval now so we can have a night out, u too toby

demolitions.. i forgot to answer toby. Yes i had all my guys with demos and multi meltas bombs. That's an awsome upgrade, but I decided, having needed to find some points from somewhere, and acknowledging it was only a matter of time before my guys threw that charge and it came back to destroy my Vendetta and whole unit, that I decided I could manage without them.

actually, i had all the units with them and in four games used them 2 x. so some games, they never even used it at all. yes i was suprised too. I think it was the way I was using them, as described above, in a very limited role.

KInG wrote:Punishers and Pask: As I said, their primary role is infantry. I did the maths just like urselves, but when u times those results by three and add Pask in also with his extra wounds caused, we are talking about a full SM unit dieing every turn. That's 200points almsot. Also, as I have discovered from my recent games, usually the 1 or 2 that might be left, if he's lucky, are not the ones carry PF or Melta

Meh anything x3 should kill 10 t4s , demolisher with las x3 (is 125pts cheaper.) each hit is cover saves only, and can kill 10 if basic spread coherancy is set.. and can kill much much more if going against hordes of T4 etc (like KFF green tide orks) or if your've trapped them (e.g. vendettas pop a tank, squad disembarks you put a pie plate on top and only those making the 4+ have any chance at all) minimal waste.
I think the punisher is meant to take out demon princes and thats about it..without running the maths to exhaustion.

Could someone run a quick set up of imaginery dice rolls of 3 punishers vs standard 10 man + warboss nob biker cheese.. they are about the same points..and I can't see which way it would go..(my belief is that you'd take them down to 5 single wound + warboss if you dedicated the vendettas afterwards too..but thats purely on the fly thinking..not based on the averages)

KInG wrote:I play the tanks close together; very close together, at 1st..

So you get the 3+ saves once someone has stunned one and is trying for the others..
Meh..it will thrash me.. I won't play it I'll buy it a pint.. that doesn't mean it will scratch the others.

I still like the officer of the fleet, mashes up demons, eldar 2nd turn fiends and hits on the head any support my 2nd waves offer to get passed your gunwall.. Its almost stuck in there just to me, so I have to think its awesome.

lol so u mean u surrender before we even get a chance to play a game?

As an experiment, I will try a demolisher in with the tanks, and keep a record of the damage it does in comparison to the other normal punisher. That should be quite interesting.

Ok, new models have arrived, so I best get started. I already have enough for the troops, so there's no stopping me now.



Played a game tonight v Gav's fluffy Nurgle CSM.

2 x defilers
3 x 7 nurgle SM troops - in rhinos with (flamer/melta/PF)
1 x 7 nurgle SM troops - in rhino with 2Melta/PF)
1 x DP (wings) not sure if nurgle or what as it didn't get on till turn 5 and game ended

Mission KPs; and Deployment PB: I win roll and go 1st, everything on, usual set up.

Gav get's scared and puts DP and 2xMelta rhino unit in reserve, mistakingly thinking 'officer of the fleet' gave me +1 on reserve rolls he said later.

My 1st turn, Immobilsed one defiler and ripped BC off, and stunned a rhino (disappointing really I thought). Gav moves up and pops smoke. This turned out to be effective for him in my turn 2 as the cover saves started to rack up. Gav's turn 2; he tank shocks my command unit with his 'fastest' rhino, but they pass Ld test and disperse around the rhino. My next turn they cover the doors and we get a wrecked result on that rhno, all the nurgles are trapped and killed inside Also that turn the other defiler is melted away by the vets who dropped from my previously shaken Vendetta.

End result: IG - 8 CSM - 0 ( CSM vps: one immobilised Vendetta and a Plasma dude who blew himself up just before his unit killed 6 Nurgles in cover.)

The Punishers are still ok at rhinos. Gav's had two weapons to take off with the -3 on glancing. But in the end they wrecked 2 rhinos. Gav needs to take extra armour and then it might have been differnet, as the Punishers were slowing them up with stunned results, while Vendettas and Vets delt with the defilers, and then turned to the rhinos. If he had put everything on at the start also, he might have got something through the net.

He also would have been better off targeting the Vendettas, instead of running for my tanks, who only have short range. In this KPs mission it wasn't so important, but in Objective based missions, that would have yeilded better results.

I feel my list is one of those you meet once and are not sure how to tackle it, which in a toruney may be to my advantage. If troops go hunting my tanks, that's surely playing into my hands?

Just a thought, why dont you try Pask in an eradicator with LC and HB sponsons. Reason being is that it still can kill a formidable amount of infantry due to no cover from the turret but also whack tanks at a decent strength and range. Plus no cover works a treat against 24" falcons etc...
Also wot about Sgt Harker, mainly for infiltrate rather that a relentless HB, hello outflank! This coupled with the suggestion of an astropath could be quite handy for last minute objective taking especially if someone brought a demo charge...

As i said, just a thought...

Nice thoughts colonel, but harker would cost points, what would you drop to take him from the list?

KInG wrote:I feel my list is one of those you meet once and are not sure how to tackle it, which in a toruney may be to my advantage. If troops go hunting my tanks, that's surely playing into my hands?

Exactly my thoughts with the DeathWing!

Good game, but playing Gav doesn't count, we all know that