Hi guys

I'm new to playing 40K.......... I'm looking for and army that is balanced and can get stuck into combat as thats the way I like to play......

Also an army that can be a bit forgiving in the hands of a newbie.

I'm thnking CSM


I'm thinking Typhus / Lash Daemon

2 or 3 units of Plague marines / bezerkers

4-6 obliterators

unit of bikes

any other suggestions

don't know what the optimum size for units for each type is yet.

I want to do a Samurai themed army so all armour the same colour and distinguish the marks of units with Samurai style back banners
( would this be ok ??????

open to ideas / suggestion

Hi, welcome to the site.

Sounds like an interesting idea. As to the banners representing marks, I'd be surprised if anyone had a problem with it.

For a newbie I'd probably suggest loyalist Space Marines though, Kantor + Sternguard with a few tac squads should make a decent core force. A few others should be along with suggestions soon - just thought I'd put my little piece in, but feel free to ignore me as I hardly get chance to play and haven't tried the current CSM or SM yet (I've not managed to use any 5e codexes in a game yet )

Welcome to the site Daimyo52!
You will get a good amount of information here.
Good to see another fresh face

TW

Hello and welcome!
Our resident CSM experts will be along shortly, curse their traitorous hides!

Hi Daimyo52!

CSM is a good army list, it can be quite hard to make a bad army - as long as you avoid certain units (I'll come to that at the end).

CSM is a very versitile army, the first place to start is to work out how you like to play, then pick an army around that.
For example, if you are an aggressive, in-your-face kind of player, then Bezerkers will suit. If you like to get to 12" fast then dakka the snot out of people, then Basic CSM, or Thousand Sons are a good choice. If you don't like transports, but like a mobile fire base, then Noise Marines are good. Plague Marines are generally good at everything... Static firebases aren't so good in 5th, I tend not to see them (even with guard).

Once you've picked the way you'd like to play - pick your troops first - all the CSM troops choices are good (even summoned daemons - although they are more situational than the marines). Make sure you have a specific purpose for each squad & equip them appropriately.

Once your troops are in place, then it's time to add the garnish. Look at the units you've picked so far & decide what element of the army is missing.
Not enough anti-tank - obliterators (awesome) or vindicators are probably your best options, along with deep-striking melta terminators
Not enough CC - A killy lord, defilers and CC dreads are good for this (raptors aren't that good, but I expect KMB will expand on his loathing of Raptors later...)
Need to take the heat off your squads - Daemon princes, defilers, vindicators, deepstriking terminators are good
Want to surprise/annoy your enemy or add some randomness to the game - lash, deepstriking terminators, daemons are good

I tend to build lists around a concept, so my (underused and underpainted) CSM list goes something like this (it's from memory so I may be a little out. The concept is to go in fast, shoot the snot out of anything I see at 12", then kick the butt of any retaliation.

Troop - 10 CSM inc champion with power fist, 2 x plasma guns, icon of chaos glory, rhino
Troop - 10 CSM inc champion with power fist, 2 x melta guns, icon of chaos glory, rhino
Troop - 7 CSM inc champion with power weapon & combi-flamer, flamer, icon of chaos glory, rhino
All the above zoom forward, smoke, then zoom forward again get out & dakka some squads

HQ - Prince, slannesh, wings, lash
he is used to prevent cover saves by my opponent to get grunts out of cover, and is a fairly effective fire magnet - he is also my counter charge for when the troops get charged by the squad they dakka'd but didn't kill, or another squad

Elite - CC dread
Elite - CC dread
These follow behind the rhino wall & counter charge with the HQ

Heavy - vindicator, possessed
Heavy - vindicator, possessed
Heavy - vindicator, possessed
These generally take the heat off my rhinos zooming forward - if they are still going on turn 3, then I've got some useful anti-tank left!

That sould all add up to around 1500pts

The glaring weakness of the list is that the troops do all the donkey work & being in rapid fire/assault range of the enemy. Given the way I build the list, its something I have to try to work around if the opponent is much better at cc than me.

My brother, is a vicious CC lover, and has played world eaters since second ed. He eschews guns as poncey & cowardly, his list is:

HQ - lord, terminator armour, daemon weapon, MoK
Troop - 8 bezerkers, champion with power fist
Heavy - Land raider, possessed

Troop - 8 bezerkers, champion with power fist
Heavy - Land raider, possessed

Troop - 8 bezerkers, champion with power fist, rhino

HQ - DP, MoK, wings

Again 1500pts, I think the tactics are fairly self explanatory...

Any kind of list can be made with CSM, except air cav I think.

Now, I said at the start that there are units you should avoid. The following only applies to competative games, in friendly games, use what you like:
Spawn - worst unit in the codex, and possibly the game...
Raptors - more expensive than CSM, no better than CSM, don't score
Bikes - horrifically priced & no attack bikes (apparently the EoT thinks sidecars are pansey)

Things that are very situational (i.e. need a good plan to get to work)
Defilers - usually seen in the cc varient, generally need an army built around them
Dreads - crazy rule means you usually see them as cc varients. If you put lascannons on them, for the Emperor's sake, don't sit them next to your rhinos!
Daemons - both types - can provide useful counter assault, but often just provide free KPs for your opponent

Hope that helps...

Welcome to aos Daimyo52!
The top list tinkerer is KMB, so he'll be along to destroy/re-create soon with a bit of luck.

Daimyo52 wrote:I want to do a Samurai themed army so all armour the same colour and distinguish the marks of units with Samurai style back banners
( would this be ok ??????

Sounds like nice theme.
If you make a load of spare banner bearers with different marks, you'll be able to field different stuff all the time.

The only problem with it, as far as I can see, is it could be awkward if you want to include icon units (rather than marked "cult" ones).

The strength of a chaos army is in the troops, they are the best in the game and the biggest problem you will have to face is overkill/over specialisation.

So Guys

This is the core of what I am thinking for my 1st CSM list 1500pts

Daemon Prince.....................Slaanesh / Lash

8 Plague Marines..................1 Melta / 1 Flamer ( rhino )

8 Plague Marines..................1 Melta / 1 Flamer ( rhino )

10 Khorne Bzerkers

2 Oblits

2 Oblits

1 Vindicator.........................Daemonic Possesion

I suspect its a standard cheese list

I have 203 pts left...... do i need another DP or do I go for champs in the PM and a basic unit of CSM

Daimyo52 wrote:So Guys

This is the core of what I am thinking for my 1st CSM list 1500pts

Daemon Prince.....................Slaanesh / Lash

8 Plague Marines..................1 Melta / 1 Flamer ( rhino )

8 Plague Marines..................1 Melta / 1 Flamer ( rhino )

10 Khorne Bzerkers

2 Oblits

2 Oblits

1 Vindicator.........................Daemonic Possesion

I suspect its a standard cheese list

I have 203 pts left...... do i need another DP or do I go for champs in the PM and a basic unit of CSM

I always go for champions in units. I always give them a powerfist too. In the end, a squad has 2 roles - to kill the enemy, and not get killed. You kill the enemy in 2 ways - by shooting them, or in cc. To that end, people with basic weapons (in your case bolter) are simply a sponge to soak up wounds (i.e. keeping the squad alive) while the heavy/special weapons kill stuff in the shooting phase, and/or the champion kills things in the cc phase.

As I pretty much write off basic weapons (they may kill stuff, but I count that as a bonus), then concentrating on special weapons (in the CSM codex, I can't see many reasons for a CSM to carry a heavy weapon - if I want to do that I'd play SM). You have 2 guns to kill stuff with - I always ensure that these have synergy - 2 plasmas, or 2 meltas are my favorite, but 2 flamers can work too. Note that CSM champions can for the most part carry combi-weapons for that added punch (once).

Plague marines have a low I, and stop anyone charging them getting an extra attack for charging them. This combined with their ability to pretty much never die means they ar the perfect drive-by shooting army - pelt forward in your rhinos, get out & dakka the snot out of anything in the way! The powerfist also works very well with Plague Marines, as you'll be punching last anyway, so you may as well get the 2+ to wound for an extra few points, as you get no extra attack, you may as well give him a combi weapon to go with it!

Powerfists also mean that there is nothing in the game you can't hurt, if you have a powerweapon, you'll need rescuing, or die to dreads & defilers (kraks only glance), many T6 monsterous creatures (needing 6s to wound, then fail their armour save), and Ironclads, Wraithlords and C'Tan (which cannot be hurt). Many people swear by powerweapons over fists - but I admit I've never been in a situation where I've thought "dang, I wish I'd bought a sword instead of a fist", but there are plenty of times where I've thought "dang, I wish I had a fist about now" (that sounds naughtier than it should - appolgies to those with sensitve stomachs ).


To actually answer your questions:
Get champions with fists in the Plague marine squads
Ensure you have synergistic weapons on the Plague marine squads (the load outs you have are ok to be fair, but I tend to specialise squads, other prefer generalists - it's a matter of taste)
Buy combi weapons for champions - but only if you have spare points at the end
I can't see what the Bezerkers are doing - either give them a rhino & a champion, or drop them (I think summoned daemons may suit your purposes better iff you are looking tie units up while you plague marines deal with a different unit, or more dakka in some more Plague marines or basic CSM)
Deamon Princes, of any variety need wings - there is a very good reason why you never see them without wings
The vindi looks a little vulnerable as the only 'hard' armour on the table, if you keep it safe for the first couple of turns, it'll stop the anti-tank weapons firing at you plague marines though, so it could work.

Hope that helped.

My fix would be similar to LHs

Daemon Prince.....................Slaanesh / Lash Wings 155

7 Plague Marines (inc fist champ)..................2 Melta ( rhino ) 256

7 Plague Marines (inc fist champ)..................2 Flamer ( rhino ) 246

9 Khorne Bzerkers(inc fist champ)-229

Possessed landraider 240 (for the beserkers)

3 Oblits-225

1 Vindicator.........................Daemonic Possesion-145
=1496
The squad sizes look odd, because I wanted to fit in that 3rd oblit (so dropped one of each troops choice members)

Reasoning
People are now fairly aware of the weakness of the lash, expect folks to have psychic hoods, be all in transports, or just focus fire and drop the guy turn 1.. that means you need more resilience in your squads and more mobility in your CC..so
Wings- make it a threat, fly 12, pull 2D6 and charge 6, if required for 20 points more he now is a standalone first turn charge monster (if absolutely required as a queen sacrifice)
Removed the mixed weaponry, as one would always be wasted..
Added fist champs as LH said (its also %%(&^* ing frustrating when your invincible super troops get locked with something that gets around all their special rules) With the beserkers.. now mobile (charge range 12" LR move+2" deplyoment +6" charge) can and must engage multiple targets (you don't want to overkill one small squad na have 1300 points shoot back, you want to engage a couple of squads safely and munch through them (blocking their gunlines LOS and tieing up a whole flank of movement potentially).
3rd oblit, range early on.. and later on the MM really backs up your rather weak anti tank (needed)..
Also landraiders are the new cheese, having played LHs 2 LR deathwing all last year.. I now only take lists with 9+ melta, other folks haven't caught up yet, and you'll hurt them bad.
Its not complete template, but its a merging of 2 of the archetypes.

Optimum size, depends.. beskerkers will kill most things they charge with 8, and some support behind them (or an IC) but you want them to tie up a couple of units so more than that doesn't hurt.
Plague marines 7 is fluffy.. But it all comes down to whether they take a str 10 pieplate to the face, or get locked with bloodletters or iroclads that chew threw them..(then your wishing the squad was smaller and you had squads elsewhere)
just off the top of my head, I wonder if Minning them and having them come on from reserve in rhinos might be better, but thats an untried and tired idea, from someone possibly with heat stroke .

What do you lot think of that (LH or other, can you tweak it closer to 1500?, I was just juggling troop numbers rather lazily)

Personally, I can't really see the synergy of the LR packed with Bezerkers. Sure, they'll draw a lot of fire for the turn that they have before they're in combat, but they'll not do much more after that.

I'd be inclined to drop the Zerkers & the LR & the Vindicator. Use the points to buy 2 more plague squads (I'd go for another melta & a plasma), a personal icon for each and another obliterator (the points are more or less there). Split the oblits into 2 2 man squads.

That way you have 4 fast scoring troops squads able to dish out damage & take it. They can call in Oblits if needed with an icon (or they can start on). The DP will act as a bullet magnet on turn 1, if he lasts longer it's a bonus, or you can depstrike him with the icons.

It is a bit spammy, but should work well.

EDIT: just to annoy you KMB - while I may be at work, the aircon is working beautifully - a lovely 19 degrees here.

Ljundhammer wrote:EDIT: just to annoy you KMB - while I may be at work, the aircon is working beautifully - a lovely 19 degrees here.

Ha, well I must be even more better , because I've got the 6th set of builders in to try to finish my &*%86389£&*^ greenhouse with sparks, 2 months of &%*% ^((67 &*6$.(no we can't touch those electrics, no we can't remove that tap, no we'll need beeding to cover that gap, no we'll have to tear out your kitchen and have wires going around the perimeter of your house..,sorry about what we did to your lawn ..*%&^%* builders!!

Going your route I wouldn't drop anything, I'd just min.
2 lash princes
4x5plague marines, 2x2flamers,2x2 melta all with fists and rhinos
2Vindies
2 Oblits.
1498(very offense heavy)

The reason a vindie is useful is you grab a swarm.. like your 30 man guard squad... or like a 30 orc units, pull it away from cover (out of range of the KFF) and hit 20-25 (how many bases fit under a large pieplate?) of them with one shot, rinse repeat. (also oblits can be lashed and killed where as vindies fair slightly better in lash vs lash )

The landraider beserkers are supported by the lash (for when the LR fails to make a charge (\ is immobilised) in effect making it be able to charge anything within 32"s lash plus deployment movement etc) Its also an aggresive way to take apart the core of an army..and have something very hard to kill sat contesting a base/hard kill point. And its all the things you use it for.. rolling cover for the rhinos, rolling cover for the lash to only be seen by certain units about to die etc.(replacement transport for that lone plague marine who wants to hide it out sat on the objective etc)

Its strange.. al the lists I've seen over the last few months all seem to be a copy pasta of this
'
1xDaemon Prince w/ LOS, MOS, Wings
1xDaemon Prince w/ MON, Warptime, Wings
Plague Marines x10 w/ x2 meltaguns, Champion w/ PF, Rhino
Plague Marines x10 w/ x2 meltaguns, Champion w/ PF, Rhino
CSM x10 w/ x2 plasmaguns, Champion, Rhino
2xVindicator w/ daemonic possession or oblits
'
And I still don't like 10 man squads I wonder if someone somewhere said it was the bestest ever and everybody just believed it. (meh, then again I liked the catapult round the sun of double lash and then fleeting a defiler into stuff that was funny)

killmaimburn wrote:And I still don't like 10 man squads I wonder if someone somewhere said it was the bestest ever and everybody just believed it. (meh, then again I liked the catapult round the sun of double lash and then fleeting a defiler into stuff that was funny)

10 man squads are almost a necessity for effective CSM, as it unlocks the 2nd special weapon (or 3rd if you are going the combi-route). For the others it seems pointless really - the most effective number for MEq seems to be 8 in my experience.

5 man is too low in my opinion - it's part of the reason I can't get my head around the new SM codex.

5 plague marines however are closer to 5 termies..when your talking about anything other than max las plas (thats just a random comparison ..I haven't done the maths.....yet)

killmaimburn wrote:.....yet)

Have things sunk so low that you are threatening us with mathhammer now?

People - we need to get this man an ice box, before things escalate further - who knows what horrors he may be capable of inflicting on our poor unsuspecting minds next...

Insert sweaty goatse image here..