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Stealer shock!! 1500

PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:09 pm
by killmaimburn
Wotcha folks, I'm getting a tad bored by chaos (well I was bored by 4th ed a few weeks after it came out.. but) i've now done everything the rather limited book would allow so I'm now looking for a new horizon.
I'm looking at my attic with its stealer horde unused in it.(put away because it played very similar to 3.5 world eaters) and all these nid threads and I thought I'll do that.
Primary purpose=Stealer horde, effective but not super uber killer.

Currently is

4Warriors as HQs with leaping, Rending claws and sycthing talons (AB 2.2. says 140 I reckon its 128 anyone confirm?)
They keep up with the swarm they are closecombat, they are cheap (16 attacks on the charge is that right?)

1 Lictor (80) I might drop him, but I want to see what he does a bit first.

Troops-798
8 genestealers (the point of the army) with scuttlers 152
Same again
same again
same again
10 genestalers with scuttlers 190.
they'll get shot to crap because they don't have carapace (every weapon in the game will puncture their skin.... but they will be D6 past the halfway point of the board turn 1. And there are 42 of them..it will be good for movie moments if nothing else

3 Zoanthropes with warp blast 165??? (some ranged shots\ the real brains of the attack)

2 Carnifexs with BS3, barbed strangler and a venom cannon AB2.2 says they cost 158 points each I reckon its 147 each anyone?
Ranged support, gives me the oppurtunity for something to fire twice for once.
AB2.2 makes that 1499
I think I can add Reinforced chitchin (+1 wd)to the carnifexs and still be 5 points under.

I have the warriors, loads of stealers and a bucket of guants.. i was going to proxy in the zoeys (sorcerors) and the carnifex (chaos DPs) until i get a feel for things.
Possible swap outs I might think about (I don't rule anything out but stuff that Iwant to try quite soon) would be using the left over points for synapseing the zoeys and swapping the 10 man stealer unit for 20 odd gaunts with scuttlers and spinefists\fleshborers.. but thats running before i've walked IMO.

So are my points right or AB2.2, does the list look ok to you, can you visualise the tide?
Any nooby mistakes i've made. Any thing you'd suggest doing next?

PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:10 pm
by Angelwing
warriors 128 pts 16 attacks on charge
zoanthropes 165
carnifex build 148

total 1467 i think

looks fine, but lacks synapse. I know its not really needed in this list, but I can see those zoanthropes and carnifexes failing the test at inopportune moments.

I'd spend some of the leftover points on buffing the warriors. eg Int, WS and toxin sacs for 32 points bring you in 1 point below, or synapse on the zoanthropes to end up 3 points below.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:54 pm
by killmaimburn
I believe the phrase rhymes with clucking bell.
Not good, I used the left over points to add synapse. I played deathwing…kind of my whole point of doing this was for a fluffy battle vs russels teapots deathwing.(LRC chaplin assault squad, 3x5termies with asscan, belial)
He setup in a bunch defensively in good terrain, he chose an area with an 18-20” run up of no direct terrain (only by skirting an incredible way round)…Darned clever (yes there was a good amount of terrain on the table and he did offer any movement I wished I just didn’t engage my brain at any level of that bit of the game.)
Set up tight packed for a run.. and staggered. Rolling 1s for fleet (2 and a half squads gone..ignoreing comments about how carapace would have saved me)

All zoeys miss and one gets periled.He perils again and tops himself..END game, Last two things left on the board were technically the only two things that could threaten his termies turn 2.they charged and nutted a termie down for a laugh.
Carnifexs immobilise the landraider.(then take off its assault cannon then get charged and die.. a valuable lesson there.. never try to use them to bolster combat)
Lictor (I used a zoat :twisted: )scatters 2d6 (but stays on terrain piece)..which means erm.. that he lands in an enemy squad and dies????? I said he was dead anyway I wasn’t happy with him, maybe there is a faq about his DSing into occupied cover, it doesn’t matter he wouldn’t have done much here and there wasn’t other terrain near the fight for me to use.
Splinter group of 18 stealers on right (now 6 get in on squad and kill it.. making sure to not go in on chaplin, next turn kill chaplin.. next turn die to strom bolter fire.

Tyranid warriors- nooby error, thought that leaping made them cavalry.. with the whole point being they keep pace with the horde.. it was pointed out pre game that that is not the case.. so they slowly hoofed it, and managed to make it into a big squad of termies with CC stuff, 1 rending dice out of 16. saved. Then they died.

Result I killed 2 squads of termies a special chaplin+1 termie and immbolised the landraider.I was killed to the last.

I haven’t played many battles where I could point out so many of my own failings quite so quickly , yes the dice totally sucked I didn’t roll a 3 until the middle of turn 2.
But carnifexs can’t be used to support combat, re read the rules for warriors,pay more attention to terrain (the list goes on and on)

List wise- yeah I kind of hate the lictor right now so he’s gone. 8 man means that big squad can actually use all there shots, possibly a true horde would have more emphasis on 6 man squads with a couple of 8 man behind.The zoanthropes were appalling (due to bad dice)1 goes..So the list will drop a lector a zoenthrope, change to mixed 6 and 8 man stealer squads and then maybe something fast or maybe an elite carnifex. WS/\ on warriors (as you said) very required. (I’ll put a new list up before they next come out.)

Sounds negative? Of course not, its only the second time I’ve seen 1500 points of nids on a table in 4th ed (they are real sparse around me) and its been an age since I took GEQ or less (the others have all been GEQ eldaring it, but now they are straying towards MEQ and termie dom, I can try back out leaving the armour at home. First impressions.. I like the way they are a combination between my lost and the damned army (leaping swarm backed gribblie swarm backed by basis) and old khorne (4 squads +1 bloodletters 2 dog squads and DP+ defiler) and are legal straight out the box.. they didn’t do what my other armies did, but then they are still legal.. and it was only my first outing with the race.

EDIT Ok I like raveners with rending and 5 attacks on the charge.. i think I could pull off them being ignored\not wasting shots if I put them as 3 single groups.. minn territory.
Would anyone ever suggest that a carnifex ever take spore cysts, in this list. For are denial\cos its cool\cheap.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:10 pm
by Angelwing
The lictor does indeed die if he deepstrikes into an enemy squad, same as all other deepstrikers. Lictor simply cannot attack by themselves. They should be used to support other units.
My Zoanthropes have a nasty tendency to miss (quite infamous for it actually), but they are useful firepower. Don't despair yet.
The warriors: Dont just upgrade WS. Do Int and S as well to make sure they can do some damage.

Raveners are excellent but fragile. A support unit by themselves or as objective takers lurking out of sight.

Spore cysts: don't bother. You can wound yourself,
and the enemy can shoot the mines which can wound you again. The mines are simply not dangerous enough for area denial. The fact that your carnifex is already there should be denial enough. Spinebanks is the carapace upgrade of choice.
It is an interesting and cool sounding/looking upgrade but it really isn't worth it on the tabletop (and this coming from a strong fluff player...!)

Finally, that zoat. I use mine as tyranid warriors. if yours is lonely, you could send him my way..! ;)

edit. another thought, perhaps a couple of lash whips instead of s talons might be and interesting upgrade to help them out.

PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 1:11 am
by killmaimburn
Cheers for the feedback angelwing..
Its fun its got such a steep learning curve and requires so much symbiosis.

The switcheroo
2a

HQ=138pts
Warrior brood
4 warrior elite, leaping adrenal glands (WS /\)
2 Lash whips, 4 Rending claws, 2 scything talons.

14 rending hits meq on 3s and steals attacks from 2 places.
( i still can't think of a more fitting HQ unless I fall into flyrant obviousness, and i have no idea how to equip them) it will take me a while to master whips.(arrgh I'm barely 2 minutes out of chaos and I'm already back using to lashes :oops: :lol: )

Troops=760

6 Stealers with scuttlers
6 Stealers with scuttlers
6 Stealers with scuttlers
6 Stealers with scuttlers
8 Stealers with scuttlers
8 Stealers with scuttlers
The stealer core (previously 42 models now 40) just more goo for the goo grinder.

Fast attack=120
Ravenor with spine fists and syching talons
Ravenor with spine fists and syching talons
Ravenor with spine fists and syching talons
these guys are just designed to be moving so fast the enemy either ignores them..or has to waste shots killing them (very similar to the warrior brood and zoeys, your either throwing shots into the swarms killing them or going for the small threats which can mess around with impunity)
Woo I get to use all my zoats :P

Heavys=489
Zoey with warp blast and synapse
Zoey with warp blast and synapse
Zoey with warp blast and synapse =195
Similar to the ravenors the indistinct blurr on the horizon amongst the tide, should be left alone might actually do something one day.

2 Carnifexs as before
BS/\ Barbed strangler and venom cannon=147
BS/\ Barbed strangler and venom cannon=147

=1507 (I might drop synapse from one zoey to go under but i think the way I lost on friday will make folks fairly open to me being a smidgeon over).

ALTERNATE=2b variant.
I drop 1 zoey and make the stealer squads all 6 man(loses 4 stealers).
Gives me 141 to spend in elites which will probably go on a dakkafex, (RT was saying I should take carapace and I should take twin linked devourers...it would be rude for me to not take one (blush)) so thats Carnifex with improved BS with two twin linked devourers=113
21 points left Increasing the nid warriors strength to 5 (12 pts) and then to use up any remainder making the heavy carnifexs WS4 (for defense)=1499
Small alternate=2c- somehow I take enough points from somewhere to make the 2 big carnifexs have another wound..bit tricky given how tightly the horde is packed in..i think I'd lose a ravenor which weakens the primary use of the list?

Which one do folks prefer? Are 2 and 2b improvements or backwards steps,if so how?? Game on monday.

PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:00 am
by LordMalekTheRedKnight
killmaimburn wrote:HQ=138pts
Warrior brood
4 warrior elite, leaping adrenal glands (WS /\)
2 Lash whips, 4 Rending claws, 2 scything talons.

( i still can't think of a more fitting HQ unless I fall into flyrant obviousness

this might be a stupid question... but what is wrong with the Broodlord? :?:

~ Tim

PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:44 am
by killmaimburn
The infiltrate ability slows down the swarm speed of the list (stops them fleeting, a cardinal sin), leads to certain arguments like witchunter lords over wound placement when mixed with carapace (so as to weasel back fleet)and as a stand alone bloke doesn't do much (I blame the chaos nerf on me beating some GW games related guys broodlord with my 3.5 tzeentch sorcerors in CC)
Fluffwise I see him as a lieutenant and far too human.
As a special unit that start closer they stand out and are fairly easily mown down.. basically the dynamic of the broodlord messes with my nid engine and from staring at the codex its all about getting the engine running smoothly rather than worrying about the litre of it or the number of cylanders
Does that come across well? My first thoughts were to a broodlord (for fitting with the stealers), then my second was to the flyrant (since everybody talks about them) i'll go back to them after a bit if I like playing nids..after 10 or so games of playtesting...math\engine hammer just led me down this path.

PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:16 am
by Angelwing
2b has a certain temptation, exchanging a mere 2 stealer and a zoanthrope for another carnifex. It would probably be more effective this way.
However, it would weaken the zoanthropes overall (they need all the shot they can get) and well, its the dakkafex build. just about every nid player has one because its a bit too good for the points. Thats just me though, always wanting to put unloved or oddball stuff into lists!

I haven't tried raveners with spinefists. They seem quite cheap and cheerful, but too expensive for cannon fodder. I would use them to create a potential threat that your opponent will hopefully send stuff from his battle line to deal with. Perhaps sending all three together (but not in one squad) down a flank hopping from cover to cover to threaten heavy weapon squads and the like. If they ignore them, simply snatch objectives.

Go with option 2a and see what happens.

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:22 pm
by killmaimburn
Tomorrow I figure I'm going to run this version, C+C (inc just saying boohiss, or yay!) welcome.Probably fighting Mr6s destroyer spam although could be an all termie affair.I'll tell you how it goes after.

I think I've made the HQ make more sense. I couldn't get anything that kept up with the tide, the flyrant might (but was expensive and pushed me towards nidzilla country) So I've gone for a minned shooty one that will follow the wave but mainly shoot at things trying to take pot shots from the flank, I've used the points for a ravener- does what i wanted the HQ to do.A boost to the big things. I can see it running smoothly now I reckon.Only prob is I'm 4points over Gahhh, If my opponents wish I might swap the sycthing talons on the 2deathspitter warriors down to spine fists (Might be an ok alternative up close I guess.What do you reckon? (anyone see any fat anywhere else to trim?)

Warrior Brood, 3 warriors with syching talons, Enhanced senses 2 deathspitters 1 venom cannon
(anti high T infantry and low AV stuff like skimmers)
91 points

Carnifex dakka build enchanced senses 2x twinlinked devourers (8 shots of sheer anti infantry- main target fast\jump troops etc)
113

6 Genestealers with scuttlers 114
6 Genestealers with scuttlers 114
6 Genestealers with scuttlers 114
6 Genestealers with scuttlers 114
6 Genestealers with scuttlers 114
6 Genestealers with scuttlers 114
Tidal swarm--I'm trying to keep my models in as many places at once(15 targets all of which you have a reason to shoot), its almost a mantra.(although I think i will have to re-write bits of fluff to say they are territorial cannibals a bit like spiders :? )

2 Raveners with Rending and talons
1 Ravener with Rending and talons
1 Ravener with Rending and talons
160, fast amongst swarm (I'm gonna need a bigger zoat! (in a jaws voice)I think I will use a pet dragon who looks like a zoat for the 4th)

2 Zoanthropes with synapse and warp blast- might do something and are quite funny really. 130 points of silly FTWzzz!.

Carnifex (sniper or gun? build) Enhanced senses, venom cannon, barbed strangler, reinforced chitchin 163
Carnifex (sniper or gun? build) Enhanced senses, venom cannon,barbed strangler, reinforced chitchin 163
Anti tank with a little stay out of cover or else about them. managed to get a points swap around that gives them more wounds to be a fire magnet longer.

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:07 pm
by killmaimburn
Quick update
Ok Its doing really well and I'm dead chuffed with the current build. its handled a warhound titan (under apoc damage sheet) in 1500 with a bunch of termies and heavy bolter plas smurfs. Its managed to go well against destroyer spam necrons again.. and last night using it I got my first win in ..well since records began against Mr6's eldar of mechdom.. Very pleased..it was quite a good game too.. those zoenthropes keeping pleasantly surprising me... oh yes they peril at least twice a game but they take down skimmers and destroyers and termies and....... (I like my blind big headed floaty balls of puss)
A new fan of the hive
KMB

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:15 pm
by Angelwing
Splendid to see that someone, somewhere is doing well with zoanthropes. You will have to speak to mine to motivate them!