Gymbol wrote:You counted the building as 'open topped' but didn't actually place the models up there?

well we put the miniatures there, but only to show what was going on (like how you might stand a model on a top of a transport that his squad is in as a reminder as to who is inside). the Ratlings themselves couldnt be shot or charged or hit in any way whilst "on the roof", it just meant they could fire out from the building, checking LOS from the roof, and that Damage rolls got a +1 bonus when the other side returned fire.

make sense?

~ Tim

If Tim classified the roof as a battlement, then he could place the models up there and they can fire. They are still counted as being in the building, so they are not counted as moving, and they cannot be attacked directly.
You're not really classifying the building as open topped, it follows the rules and exceptions for buildings in the rulebook.

EDIT: You beat me to it Tim!
And yes, it does make sense to me.

TW

Ah, ok. So, even though you can 'see' them, you can't see them so they can go 12" away from the nearest model.

That's just spiff. I'm going to encourage folks where I play to place buildings in the center of the board and point this out to them.

*because I have LOTS of flamers.*

Gymbol wrote:Ah, ok. So, even though you can 'see' them, you can't see them so they can go 12" away from the nearest model.

Okay, you got me here. Can you explain what you mean?

TW

You've got models on top of the building to show where the unit is and to take advantage of the parapet for shooting. But to my mind, they are more in the nature of placeholders than actual members of the unit. You can't shoot the unit in the building, because you can't SEE the unit in the building, right?

Well, if the enemy unit can't see them, then you can place infiltrators 12" from the enemy inside or on top of a building, instead of 18"

I probably ought to spend more time parsing my postings.
Nah. Ready Fire Aim! That's my motto.

its worth noting that while inside the building the Ratlings are out of sight. you can see the building, but you cant see them. they dont even have LOS to the enemy themselves until they use the roof.

its also worth clarifying what happens when a Template Weapon is fired at a building and touches a Parapet without touching a Fire Point (or if the building doesnt even have Fire Points). the parapet rules dont actually say that the rule for hitting a Fire Point with the Template applies... so i wouldnt try to spring this on someone midgame.

EDIT:

Gymbol wrote:Well, if the enemy unit can't see them, then you can place infiltrators 12" from the enemy inside or on top of a building, instead of 18"

being able to Infiltrate into a building that is just over 12" from the enemy is explicitly allowed by the rules. in the same way, you could infiltrate to just over 12" from a building that contained an enemy unit, assuming no enemy could see you there (the unit in the Building cant see you there, not yet anyway, so they wont stop you being there).

EDIT2: if the Building had Fire Points, could those be used to determine the LOS of the occupying unit, at times when the unit isnt actually shooting?
can a unit in a Transport Vehicle spot Infiltrators using a Fire Point?

~ Tim

Gymbol wrote: You've got models on top of the building to show where the unit is and to take advantage of the parapet for shooting. But to my mind, they are more in the nature of placeholders than actual members of the unit. You can't shoot the unit in the building, because you can't SEE the unit in the building, right?

Not actually to show where the unit is. A building will usually have a number of firing points, but troops on a parapet or battlement may fire in addition to the units firing from the fire points.
For example, you have a unit of 20 orks in a building. The building has 4 fire points, but has a parapet on top that can hold 8 models. Normally, 4 orks can fire, but you could place 8 on the parapet and now fire with 12 models. You can't shoot at them because of the rule on page 79 under attacking buildings. The trade off (Tim referred to it) is that if you have models on a parapet, you add to the result of the damage roll when the building is attacked.

Gymbol wrote: Well, if the enemy unit can't see them, then you can place infiltrators 12" from the enemy inside or on top of a building, instead of 18"

That's an interesting question, but not because the models can't be seen. For a model in a building to fire, it would have to draw LOS from either the fire point (if in the building) or the model itself (if on a parapet) so the enemy can certainly see them, just can't shoot or assault them.
As to infiltrate, I am looking that over now, why not start a rules discussion on it!

Gymbol wrote: I probably ought to spend more time parsing my postings.
Nah. Ready Fire Aim! That's my motto.

Words to live by! Just understand that sometimes I have trouble following your lead

TW

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:its also worth clarifying what happens when a Template Weapon is fired at a building and touches a Parapet without touching a Fire Point (or if the building doesnt even have Fire Points). the parapet rules dont actually say that the rule for hitting a Fire Point with the Template applies... so i wouldnt try to spring this on someone midgame.

(snippage)
can a unit in a Transport Vehicle spot Infiltrators using a Fire Point?

1..Why not assume the parapet is a fire point for template purposes?

The rules for templates touching firepoints is clear, and the rule for putting models on top of buildings is somewhat less so. Or maybe it is just less clear to me. You can't shoot at models on the parapet??? Then why can a flamer hit them? Yet you can shoot out of a parapet but its not a firepoint?

2..
And for the unit in the transport, I think that matters not. The transport is a unit, and has its own line of sight which would affect infiltrators whether there was a unit inside or not.

3..
And besides which all of that, doesn't the rule for LOS & 18" apply to ALL units on the field? You can't place an infiltrating unit less than 18" from a unit that can't see it, if another unit on the field CAN see it.

4..
What about during night fighting missions? Can you place a unit closer than 18" if no one can 'see' it because their 2d6x3 isn't big enough?

Gymbol wrote:1..Why not assume the parapet is a fire point for template purposes?

personally i would be OK with that, but its a RaW thing.

Gymbol wrote:2..
And for the unit in the transport, I think that matters not. The transport is a unit, and has its own line of sight which would affect infiltrators whether there was a unit inside or not.

but the unit might have better/different LOS than the Transport, if they could use Firepoints for this purpose.

Gymbol wrote:3..
And besides which all of that, doesn't the rule for LOS & 18" apply to ALL units on the field? You can't place an infiltrating unit less than 18" from a unit that can't see it, if another unit on the field CAN see it.

yes, i was assuming that the unit in question would make the difference between them being seen or not being seen.

Gymbol wrote:4..
What about during night fighting missions? Can you place a unit closer than 18" if no one can 'see' it because their 2d6x3 isn't big enough?

the spotting distance for Night Fight doesnt actually restrict LOS, just whether or not the firers get to shoot.
(you take the roll after selecting a target, and you can only choose a target that is within LOS to begin with)

if you roll too low it doesnt necessarily mean you cant see them at all, just that you couldnt get a clear shot, or couldnt make out the unit well enough to make sure they arent friendly troops etc.

besides, since the roll isnt made until the unit is shooting, it wouldnt come into play when trying to spot Infiltrators. EDIT: in DoW it only applies in turn 1 anyway, not before the game starts.

hope that helps

~ Tim

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:

Gymbol wrote:1..Why not assume the parapet is a fire point for template purposes?

personally i would be OK with that, but its a RaW thing.

Uhm... where is the definition of fire points?

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:

Gymbol wrote:2..
And for the unit in the transport, I think that matters not. The transport is a unit, and has its own line of sight which would affect infiltrators whether there was a unit inside or not.

but the unit might have better/different LOS than the Transport, if they could use Firepoints for this purpose.

only way this could happen would be fire points outside the hull. Or higher than the hull, or something like that.

Gymbol wrote: Uhm... where is the definition of fire points?

Page 66, first column, FIRE POINTS - "A transport vehicle may have a number of fire points defined in its entry."

Page 79 FIRING FROM BUILDINGS - "Just like some transport vehicles, buildings have fire points that allow units inside to fire out...Players should agree beforehand where these fire points are."

And as a clarification, page 80 PARAPETS AND BATTLEMENTS - "...If any models from the unit are placed on a parapet, they can fire in addition to those using firing points."

TW

So we still don't really know _what_ a fire point looks like, but we know a parapet isn't one. Probably. (grins)

Gymbol wrote:only way this could happen would be fire points outside the hull. Or higher than the hull, or something like that.

no, it could happen if the Vehicle only had a front fire arc but the fire points could see out the side and/or rear. (although this relates to the other thread: if a Vehicle's LOS isnt bound by its fire arcs, then what is it, and where is it checked from? where are its "eyes"?)

Gymbol wrote:So we still don't really know _what_ a fire point looks like, but we know a parapet isn't one. Probably. (grins)

well, on a building the Fire Points are where and what we define them to be, and on a Vehicle they are listed in its entry.

but like i said, Flamers vs Parapets is a 'RaW thing'.
(i'd allow them to count, as long as they are being used)

~ Tim