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Reading fluff makes my head hurt

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:51 am
by Gymbol
The eldar are a dying race. Each breeder should be the definition of wealth to the race, yet Guardians are the 3rd cheapest trooper in the game.

Space marines live for a thousand years, surviving many, many battles. Yet, after almost every game, 2/3 of the marines are dead. 3/3 when the marine player is (baleeted).

Individual troopers aren't necessarily killed in the fight. Yeah, right. The after combat medsquads come in and pick up all the troopers that were eaten and shat out by by the gant squads and then nanobot all the tiny little pieces back together. Boy, now THERE is a trooper with a cr**py attitude.

Humans are a non-psyker race. Yet, marines have some of the best psyker abilities.

Necrons are undead. Yet, they aren't fearless.

Chaos are going to be consumed horribly over and over in the afterlife, yet most of them (that play against me) ARE fearless.

Orks, the most ignorant and backwards race, have the best gear. Yeah, I know. They are really the best psychic race and their gear works because they BELIEVE their cr*p works. (Sheesh, a transport that actually HELPS them when it blows up!!!)

Other points from people that are able to actually READ fluff without their heads blowing up?

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:04 pm
by mattjgilbert
I know what you mean. Trying to get fluff to match exactly with game mechanics though is a nightmare if you made some outrageous claims in the fluff itself. Space marines should be nigh on indestructable if the game were to match the fluff but you'd only be able to field 1 model at 1500 points.

It would be a quick way of collecting an army though ;)

PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:00 am
by WolflordHavoc
The whole 1000 Marines in a Chapter is 'nuts' and really does my head in.

I mean 1000 Marines can Capture an Entire world?

Okay GW Back ground sources claim its true but come on 1000 Marines.....Verses (in our example we use a Human world!) a Planetary defence force of potentially Millions and a Population in the potential Billions! How is 1000 marines supposed to do that!

Marine Chapters should either be -

A) A 1000 Marines each As powerful as a Deamon Prince
B) 1000 marines Strong but their should be Thousands of them (combining forces with a Dozen or so other chapters for a Planetary Attack) and therefore there should be 'Thousands' of Chaptersd and Not just 1000.
C) Really rather big - sort of Tens of Thousands of Marines strong and Dozens of Battle barges each.

I prefer C but B would be more realistic in terms of Ret Conning the back ground.

I agree with the Guardians being a bit rather naff - I mean the Average Eldar would live like a Prince compared to a human. And as the Op says - each Eldar life is vital for the survival of the race. And yet he/She...it.....is prepared to don armor that would shame a Guardsman and a weapon that quite frankly does not serve.


At worst they should have carapace armor even if their Stats are still poor.

Finely crafted weapons and baroque suits of armor all lovingly maintained throughout their lives (and possibly handed down).

I would like to see the Guardians given the choice between Shurikan Catapults and Eldar Lasrifles (same stats as the basic Swooping Hawk Weapon) as well as Plasma and EMP grenades.

So why their stats are not all that, at least their weapons and equipment are the best they could have.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:04 am
by Gymbol
I actually know the REAL eldar fluff that has been kept secret for lo these many years.

Everyone (except 1) fighting in the Eldar army are really changelings, stolen from human worlds and mutated to be more pansylike and then trained in flower arranging to adjust their mind. The only REAL eldar in the force would be the farseer, and heesh would be an exile or prisoner trying to redeem himself by accomplishing some useful (minor) purpose.

But I've got no idea what the fluff for the rest of the races would be.

Re: Reading fluff makes my head hurt

PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:20 am
by Ljundhammer
The fluff is difficult, and often contradictory, as some is told from an in-universe perspective, and some from the 'god' perspective. The in-universe narrative often shouldn't be trusted & needs to be pulled from different sources to gain an idea of the actual abilities/details of anything. To me, most of the in-universe narrative is akin to Imperial propoganda, but you do get stuff for the other races.

Black library, I find, can generally be ignored for 2 reasons:
1) it's not canon per GW
2) it depicts whoever is the main hero/race as 'teh UBERZ' (generally space marines)

Gymbol wrote:Humans are a non-psyker race. Yet, marines have some of the best psyker abilities.


Humans are definately not a non-psychic species. More an emerging psychic species, where a majority of people do not exhibit any psychic abilities, but a huge number do exhibit psychic abilities or potential.

Marines have the best psychic abilities through years/decades of training & enhanced cognative & physical abilities. Also because MariNEZ ROXXorZ!

Gymbol wrote:Necrons are undead. Yet, they aren't fearless.


Fearless doesn't equate to stupidly carring on beating your (dead) head against a wall. The leadership test can be seen as a 'tactical rearward advance' away from overwhelming odds & stupidly dying for no reason.

Gymbol wrote:Chaos are going to be consumed horribly over and over in the afterlife, yet most of them (that play against me) ARE fearless.


Yes, but they're zealots who will gladly lay down their lives for the will of the gods they serve, in the hope that they will serve an eternity as a daemon. Only the cult troops are fearless, the normal marines aren't quite so 'god blind'.

Gymbol wrote:Orks, the most ignorant and backwards race, have the best gear. Yeah, I know. They are really the best psychic race and their gear works because they BELIEVE their cr*p works. (Sheesh, a transport that actually HELPS them when it blows up!!!).


Well 2 things are in here:
1) why do orks have good gear?
You need to go waaaay back to RT era to get to the Old Ones (I think the War in Heaven fluff may go into it). The Old Ones created the Orcs (Krork) as a living weapon against the Necrontyr. All orcs are genentically engineered to be able to use technology. Mekboys are hardwired to create technohnology & are able to build pretty much anything from pretty much nothing (a sort of poor man's Jokero). The fall of the Orcs came when they killed all the 'brain boyz', but that's a different story.
2) do orcs gunz only work 'coz dey 'fink dey do?
Well, that comes from some fairly flimsy in-universe fluff IIRC, a tech-priest is trying to work out how orc gunz work, can't, so decides they must be psychicly attuned. Do I belive that orc gunz work because orcs think they do - no, it's a stupid idea!

mattjgilbert wrote:I know what you mean. Trying to get fluff to match exactly with game mechanics though is a nightmare if you made some outrageous claims in the fluff itself. Space marines should be nigh on indestructable if the game were to match the fluff but you'd only be able to field 1 model at 1500 points.

It would be a quick way of collecting an army though ;)


Very true. Although movie marines seemed to pretty good (although I'd still posit that marines are only that strong in the Imperial propoganda).

WolflordHavoc wrote:The whole 1000 Marines in a Chapter is 'nuts' and really does my head in.

I mean 1000 Marines can Capture an Entire world?

Okay GW Back ground sources claim its true but come on 1000 Marines.....Verses (in our example we use a Human world!) a Planetary defence force of potentially Millions and a Population in the potential Billions! How is 1000 marines supposed to do that!


100 Marines is pants - there's triest at Bolter & Chainsword that makes it nearer 1600, if I can find it I'll dig it out.

Space marines don't fight wars though, they fight battles. A surgical blade to cut out the heart of an army, while the IG pound its body to death with a tank-shaped hammer. While marines specialise (for example IF are seige warfare, BA are assault), each chapter will have intelligence to pin-point where attacks will have the greatest effect & bring arms to bear at that point. The IG are there to hold the line.

SM also have the 'shock and awe' factor, I'd imagine that most humans would loosen their bowels if an 8 foot armoured warrior with a gun half the size of man that makes the loudest noise you've heard smashed through a wall next to you.

To answer your question, I doubt that marines could capture a whole world. They probably could, and do, strike at corrupt Planetary Goveners, remove the head of the corruption & leave the PDF/IG/Inquisition to mop up. The Armageddon War is a case in point, the number of SM was dwarfed by the IG presence.

WolflordHavoc wrote:Marine Chapters should either be -

A) A 1000 Marines each As powerful as a Deamon Prince
B) 1000 marines Strong but their should be Thousands of them (combining forces with a Dozen or so other chapters for a Planetary Attack) and therefore there should be 'Thousands' of Chaptersd and Not just 1000.
C) Really rather big - sort of Tens of Thousands of Marines strong and Dozens of Battle barges each.

I prefer C but B would be more realistic in terms of Ret Conning the back ground.


A) Imperial Propaganda
B) The 1000 chapters is an estimate, I highly doubt that anyone knows quite how many chapters there are...
C) The whole point of the Codex Astartes was to stop Marine armies being powerful enough to be able to wage long running, world conquering campaigns on their own. Last time they were allowed armies that big it didn't end too well... Of course there are exceptions - SW & BT spring instantly to mind, but I doubt either would last long if they turned tratior.

WolflordHavoc wrote:I agree with the Guardians being a bit rather naff - I mean the Average Eldar would live like a Prince compared to a human. And as the Op says - each Eldar life is vital for the survival of the race. And yet he/She...it.....is prepared to don armor that would shame a Guardsman and a weapon that quite frankly does not serve.


The thing about guardians is that they are very rarely pressed into service (in fluff terms, not game). They aren't battle hardened veterans, as many IG regiments will be, and they aren't fully skilled & drilled, as all IG regiments will be. Wile their skills are better thanthe average human, they aren't warriors. I expect some will be on the path of the flautist, or the path of the flower arranger, I wouldn't want them standing next to me when bullets start flying...

WolflordHavoc wrote:At worst they should have carapace armor even if their Stats are still poor.

Finely crafted weapons and baroque suits of armor all lovingly maintained throughout their lives (and possibly handed down).

I would like to see the Guardians given the choice between Shurikan Catapults and Eldar Lasrifles (same stats as the basic Swooping Hawk Weapon) as well as Plasma and EMP grenades.

So why their stats are not all that, at least their weapons and equipment are the best they could have.


Their armour is suited to the eldar way of war. Move & hit, move & hit, move. Bulkier armour would slow them down - aspects are dedicated warriors & have specialist training to be able to use the bulkier armour. However, I concede that after 60million years since the War in Heaven & aeons before that, they might have found a better way to make armour...


It's all the 'rule of cool' in the fluff - they guys that write this are like you & me, they aren't military veterans, they aren't material scientists - if it sounds cool, it goes in. Read it, reach your own conclusions & work out why stuff that is contradictory is, or work out why one is wrong, or more reliable.

As to fluff v's rules - don't go there, it ends in tears. The balance of the game dictates the rules (if you believe GW) - this is far away from the rule of cool.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:12 pm
by Socaddict
Mostly good stuff, but you're way out on your ork fluff. The whole old ones rubbish was a recent retcon. Originally we just simply had the hyper intelligent brain boys (snotlings on fungus drugs, effectively). The orks and grots were created to harvest this fungus for the brain boyz, and were relatively mindless themselves. A few orks randomly tried this "smart fungus", and then stopped harvesting for the brain boyz. Realising their impending doom, the brain boyz genetically altered the orks, so that the oddboyz we see today would result, and ensure the survival of the orkoid race.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:33 pm
by darkgod
don't spacemarines have battlebarges that would pummel a planet with its orbital bombardment and least not forget special weapon torpedoes ie. vortex, viral and cyclonic.

if you put that into the equation 1000 marines could pretty much clear a planet of life let alone conquer the populous.

orks didn't kill the brainboyz they died off themselves by a plaque or some sort and implanted the knowledge of how to build stuff into the orks not the old ones.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:42 pm
by Ljundhammer
Socaddict wrote:Mostly good stuff, but you're way out on your ork fluff. The whole old ones rubbish was a recent retcon. Originally we just simply had the hyper intelligent brain boys (snotlings on fungus drugs, effectively). The orks and grots were created to harvest this fungus for the brain boyz, and were relatively mindless themselves. A few orks randomly tried this "smart fungus", and then stopped harvesting for the brain boyz. Realising their impending doom, the brain boyz genetically altered the orks, so that the oddboyz we see today would result, and ensure the survival of the orkoid race.


You got me on that! Didn't realise that the old ones creating the Krork was new.

How does the Krork/Brain boyz/Old ones connection slot together then? I thought that it was OO make Krork, BB are part of Krork, BB die out & the Orcs are the remains of the shattered warrior classes. Am I far off?

Or I could read the next post :roll:

darkgod wrote:
orks didn't kill the brainboyz they died off themselves by a plaque or some sort and implanted the knowledge of how to build stuff into the orks not the old ones.


So the BB were a class/race within the Krork?

PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:47 pm
by estarriol
I just treat them as competent and slightly weird and ignore the official fluff on them.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:58 pm
by killmaimburn
Ljundhammer wrote:So the BB were a class/race within the Krork?
pointy eared greenskins 8O

PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 4:29 pm
by Socaddict
brainboys are still around. Brainboys are just snotlings that never got to take the smart fungus, and the smart fungus that made them the brain boys is what died out.