Login

Username:


Password:


Remember me



Forgot Password?




 Merchandise




The missing Pre-Heresy Chapters

Created your own background storyline for your army? Want to discuss the 40k history?

The missing Pre-Heresy Chapters

Postby conscriptboris » Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:28 pm

hi,

I was flicking through DA codex at the founding chapter and noticed the two that arent entered. Ive seen this before, has the names of the these chapters been released?

Im thinking they must have been traitor legions to have been deleted to that level?

Any thoughts?

conscriptboris

PS: im thinking angels of redemption, DA have alot of choices.
User avatar
conscriptboris
Elvis isnt Dead!
Commander
 
Posts: 1534
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:00 am
Location: Gibraltar
Medals: 1
Painting Entrant (1)

Postby Spack » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:20 pm

They've never been released. I seem to remember GW said they left them intentionally so players could make up their own.

Given that the traitor legions from the Horus Heresy are still listed, for those two to be removed completely they must have done something far worse than merely become traitor legions (what could be worse???).

If you read the Horus Heresy books from Black Library, or the really old fluff, then you'll find out
Spoiler: show
when the primarchs were scattered the two primarchs for those legions were possibly killed
. However, if you read "The Lightning Tower" (half of the limited edition chapbook from Black Library) then things get a little more interesting,
Spoiler: show
as Dorn and Malcador meet where the statues of the primarchs are on display and it mentions that the statues of those two primarchs were removed - if they died as babies then there would be no statues as nobody would know what they looked like as adults, and if they had not yet been found then there would be no statues, and it's alluded to that something untoward happened to them (you can stab in the dark all you like here, a friend of mine suggest maybe they fell to chaos when first scattered to the warp as they were injured and not as able as their brothers to resist the daemons in the warp, and after finding them and reuniting them with their legions they turned and were excommunicated before the Heresy even began by the Emperor himself - the other traitor legions names remain as reminders to the loyalist marines of what happened during the Heresy, but those two were removed from all records permanently


(btw, hover the mouse points over the SPOILER text to open up what I've written, but be warned that they are spoilers)
Last edited by Spack on Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:07 pm, edited 5 times in total.
User avatar
Spack
I R Ginger
Field Marshall
 
Posts: 6750
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 12:00 am
Location: Birmingham, UK
Medals: 2
Bronze (1) Painting Entrant (1)
Blog: View Blog (29)

Postby killmaimburn » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:54 pm

Aren't there also 2 legions missing from the chaos star?
To stab at the dark I'd have to say that with all the future being grim war and even with the primarchs being fairly naughty verging on evil (even before the heresy) it would probably be something to do with the might = right state they were all in . Maybe those primarchs were not prime enough, maybe they didn't fully conquer their world and win over its people, maybe they were rather sad little blokes who didn't aspire. (I appreciate that to use the catch all phrase of body facism isn't quite true, they accepted a giant cyclops and a wolf thing) But maybe those were just failed experiments of the emperors who didn't interest him even enough to merit his displeasure.
But yeah it makes it have room for expansion in the future e.g. malal can own one maybe
Barely even lurking..
ruffian4 wrote:Handy fellow, this kmb...Like Ahriman delving the paths of the webway ...
World of ME First try at Apoc Batrep WHAT/WHO is AOS?
User avatar
killmaimburn
Now Vanus Clade
 
Posts: 6581
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:00 am
Location: Nottingham, mid-land
Blog: View Blog (1)

Postby Ben » Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:16 pm

I think it is because they rebelled against the Emperor. When the Emperor said, "and they shall be no more" then it was different then the record removal after the heresy since that was not with true "Imperial Authority".

Then again I know next to nothing about 40K history.

I just look at how founders can set things in place and it carries weight of law even though there is no such thing.
User avatar
Ben
High Lord of Terra
Brother-Captain
 
Posts: 1259
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:00 am

Postby Ljundhammer » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:28 pm

The reasons for the 'missing' legions have never been disclosed, and are unlikely to be (I hope).

It's a nice little area to add in any conspiracy theory you like. However, it's based on the 20 Roman legions, 2 of which were scrubbed from the records too...

Reasons I have seen for the 'missing':
Fell to chaos pre heresy
Primarchs died in the 'womb'
Primarchs died on their new world
Primarchs wouldn't submit to the emperor's rule
They're stealth marines, and therefore invisible
They're custodes
They're Grey Knights
They're squats
Tyranids ate them

I think that's near enough in order of likelyhood from my POV too...
When in deadly danger
When beset by doubt
Run in little circles
Wave your arms and shout
- parody of the litany of command
User avatar
Ljundhammer
Brother-Captain
Brother-Captain
 
Posts: 1563
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:00 am
Location: Nottingham - the North

Postby conscriptboris » Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:16 pm

Im liking the idea that GW might of actually put some thought into the fluff on this one (prob by accident :P )

Well it does show the "legions" as missing, so the primarchs must have been found and given their planet over to the emperor or they wouldnt have been described as a lost legion.

Im thinking they might have rebelled before the HH or after and they were completely removed to show no evidence of that happening (the HH being quite hard to cover up)

Ive read up to the latest HH book and theres not even a mention in there,

ohwell just pondering,

Thks

conscriptboris
User avatar
conscriptboris
Elvis isnt Dead!
Commander
 
Posts: 1534
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:00 am
Location: Gibraltar
Medals: 1
Painting Entrant (1)

Postby Spack » Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:23 pm

conscriptboris wrote:Im thinking they might have rebelled before the HH or after and they were completely removed to show no evidence of that happening (the HH being quite hard to cover up)

Ive read up to the latest HH book and theres not even a mention in there,


As per my second spoiler, whatever happened occurred before the HH - I guess you haven't read The Lightning Tower, it's a shame it was limited to 1500 copies worldwide as it's interesting reading, really gives an insight in Dorn (and the Dark King, the other short story in the same book, reveals more about the conflict between Dorn and Curze).
User avatar
Spack
I R Ginger
Field Marshall
 
Posts: 6750
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 12:00 am
Location: Birmingham, UK
Medals: 2
Bronze (1) Painting Entrant (1)
Blog: View Blog (29)

Postby conscriptboris » Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:41 pm

I guess you haven't read The Lightning Tower


who wrote that book?

conscript
User avatar
conscriptboris
Elvis isnt Dead!
Commander
 
Posts: 1534
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:00 am
Location: Gibraltar
Medals: 1
Painting Entrant (1)

Postby Spack » Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:57 pm

User avatar
Spack
I R Ginger
Field Marshall
 
Posts: 6750
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 12:00 am
Location: Birmingham, UK
Medals: 2
Bronze (1) Painting Entrant (1)
Blog: View Blog (29)

Postby Ben » Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:58 pm

Ljundhammer wrote:It's a nice little area to add in any conspiracy theory you like. However, it's based on the 20 Roman legions, 2 of which were scrubbed from the records too...


I have heard others assert that as well. Rome had far more than 20 legions. If fact when Trajan raised the last legion he numbered it 30 because at the time there were 29 in existence. There were no legions that were "scrubbed". Four were disbanded for cowardice. Seven were destroyed in battle. Five just disappeared. Three legions destroyed Legio XVII, Legio XVIII, and Legio XIX were unique in that their legion numbers were never used again. If that is the basis then it was 3 of the 22 numbered and 3 of the 25 total (there were multiples of legion 1, 2 and 3).

If that is the connection the three legions have the distinct (dis)honor of having lost their Aquila. All were eventually recovered but the last took almost 40 years.

Just saying. ;)
User avatar
Ben
High Lord of Terra
Brother-Captain
 
Posts: 1259
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:00 am

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:00 pm

just wild speculation, but could it be that they were sent on a special mission, one so vital and so secret that no-one could ever even know they existed? prehaps something to do with Chaos, whereby they are taken "off the radar" in order to combat chaos, but it relies on the dark powers never knowing about them?

records could have been purged and minds even wiped to hide their identity so that no-one could scry for them etc (even the other Marine chapters wouldnt know about them anymore)?

like i said, wild speculation. the real answer IMO exists outside the fluff, in the real world: GW wanted to give us the chance to create our own armies to fill these gaps and/or wanted a "placeholder" to insert a new army into the fluff at a later date (at the time it was probably the former, but these days its probably leaning towards the latter :roll:).

~ Tim
Last edited by LordMalekTheRedKnight on Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
8O :D OMG - Im a Dad - of THREE!! :D 8O
:) I am "LMTRK" on The Wizards Community and MTG Salvation
User avatar
LordMalekTheRedKnight
Lord Marmite
Lord General
 
Posts: 4876
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:00 am
Location: Stamford, Lincs, UK

Postby ruffian4 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:42 pm

I doubt that there is any "official fluff" on them.
Gw often leave hooks in their background that they can revisit.

Did any of you catch garth marenghi's darkplace?
(If not, it's on u tube, episode 1 will kill you stone dead!)

Our horror writer (excuse me, fabulist and dreamweaver) is asked where he gets his inspiration to which he responds "I re-read my own stuff. There's always something profound in there I missed the first time."
killmaimburn wrote:If this is a masked ball, then the other bits of him are off spiking the teachers punch.


DEATH WATCH DEATH RATTLE DEATHS DOOR AINT I DIED ENOUGH BEFORE?
User avatar
ruffian4
4th dan imbecile
Sorceror
 
Posts: 3065
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:00 am
Location: Twat hq.

Postby Swordmaker » Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:43 pm

I may have missed this theory in here, as I've read rather quickly, but a theory I have is that one of those "Missing Legions" is the Firehawks, aka The Legion of the Damned.

I'm not sure what time period the fluff states the Firehawks were lost in a warpstorm, but if it was pre-heresy, or heresy-concurrent, they may be one of those that were lost.

If anyone here knows of official fluff on the Firehawks / LoTD, please share it, as I'm very interested! The Index Astartes entries are rather vague. (Imagine that!)
User avatar
Swordmaker
Newbie
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:00 am

Postby Spack » Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:47 pm

The Firehawks were part of the Cursed 21st Founding though, not the First Founding (the First Founding being the original 20 legions).
Last edited by Spack on Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Spack
I R Ginger
Field Marshall
 
Posts: 6750
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 12:00 am
Location: Birmingham, UK
Medals: 2
Bronze (1) Painting Entrant (1)
Blog: View Blog (29)

Postby Swordmaker » Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:00 pm

Spack wrote:The Firehawks were part of the Cursed 21st Founding though, not the First Founding (the First Founding being the original 20 legions).


Ah, well that answers my query!. Thanks!!
Swordmaker
Nothing says, "Begone, heretic!" like an Exorcist.
User avatar
Swordmaker
Newbie
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:00 am

Next



Return to 40K Background/Fluff & Black Library




 Social Links