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The missing Pre-Heresy Chapters

Created your own background storyline for your army? Want to discuss the 40k history?

The missing Pre-Heresy Chapters

Postby conscriptboris » Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:28 pm

hi,

I was flicking through DA codex at the founding chapter and noticed the two that arent entered. Ive seen this before, has the names of the these chapters been released?

Im thinking they must have been traitor legions to have been deleted to that level?

Any thoughts?

conscriptboris

PS: im thinking angels of redemption, DA have alot of choices.
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Postby Spack » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:20 pm

They've never been released. I seem to remember GW said they left them intentionally so players could make up their own.

Given that the traitor legions from the Horus Heresy are still listed, for those two to be removed completely they must have done something far worse than merely become traitor legions (what could be worse???).

If you read the Horus Heresy books from Black Library, or the really old fluff, then you'll find out
Spoiler: show
when the primarchs were scattered the two primarchs for those legions were possibly killed
. However, if you read "The Lightning Tower" (half of the limited edition chapbook from Black Library) then things get a little more interesting,
Spoiler: show
as Dorn and Malcador meet where the statues of the primarchs are on display and it mentions that the statues of those two primarchs were removed - if they died as babies then there would be no statues as nobody would know what they looked like as adults, and if they had not yet been found then there would be no statues, and it's alluded to that something untoward happened to them (you can stab in the dark all you like here, a friend of mine suggest maybe they fell to chaos when first scattered to the warp as they were injured and not as able as their brothers to resist the daemons in the warp, and after finding them and reuniting them with their legions they turned and were excommunicated before the Heresy even began by the Emperor himself - the other traitor legions names remain as reminders to the loyalist marines of what happened during the Heresy, but those two were removed from all records permanently


(btw, hover the mouse points over the SPOILER text to open up what I've written, but be warned that they are spoilers)
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Postby killmaimburn » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:54 pm

Aren't there also 2 legions missing from the chaos star?
To stab at the dark I'd have to say that with all the future being grim war and even with the primarchs being fairly naughty verging on evil (even before the heresy) it would probably be something to do with the might = right state they were all in . Maybe those primarchs were not prime enough, maybe they didn't fully conquer their world and win over its people, maybe they were rather sad little blokes who didn't aspire. (I appreciate that to use the catch all phrase of body facism isn't quite true, they accepted a giant cyclops and a wolf thing) But maybe those were just failed experiments of the emperors who didn't interest him even enough to merit his displeasure.
But yeah it makes it have room for expansion in the future e.g. malal can own one maybe
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Postby Ben » Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:16 pm

I think it is because they rebelled against the Emperor. When the Emperor said, "and they shall be no more" then it was different then the record removal after the heresy since that was not with true "Imperial Authority".

Then again I know next to nothing about 40K history.

I just look at how founders can set things in place and it carries weight of law even though there is no such thing.
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Postby Ljundhammer » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:28 pm

The reasons for the 'missing' legions have never been disclosed, and are unlikely to be (I hope).

It's a nice little area to add in any conspiracy theory you like. However, it's based on the 20 Roman legions, 2 of which were scrubbed from the records too...

Reasons I have seen for the 'missing':
Fell to chaos pre heresy
Primarchs died in the 'womb'
Primarchs died on their new world
Primarchs wouldn't submit to the emperor's rule
They're stealth marines, and therefore invisible
They're custodes
They're Grey Knights
They're squats
Tyranids ate them

I think that's near enough in order of likelyhood from my POV too...
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Postby conscriptboris » Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:16 pm

Im liking the idea that GW might of actually put some thought into the fluff on this one (prob by accident :P )

Well it does show the "legions" as missing, so the primarchs must have been found and given their planet over to the emperor or they wouldnt have been described as a lost legion.

Im thinking they might have rebelled before the HH or after and they were completely removed to show no evidence of that happening (the HH being quite hard to cover up)

Ive read up to the latest HH book and theres not even a mention in there,

ohwell just pondering,

Thks

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Postby Spack » Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:23 pm

conscriptboris wrote:Im thinking they might have rebelled before the HH or after and they were completely removed to show no evidence of that happening (the HH being quite hard to cover up)

Ive read up to the latest HH book and theres not even a mention in there,


As per my second spoiler, whatever happened occurred before the HH - I guess you haven't read The Lightning Tower, it's a shame it was limited to 1500 copies worldwide as it's interesting reading, really gives an insight in Dorn (and the Dark King, the other short story in the same book, reveals more about the conflict between Dorn and Curze).
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Postby conscriptboris » Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:41 pm

I guess you haven't read The Lightning Tower


who wrote that book?

conscript
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Postby Spack » Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:57 pm

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Postby Ben » Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:58 pm

Ljundhammer wrote:It's a nice little area to add in any conspiracy theory you like. However, it's based on the 20 Roman legions, 2 of which were scrubbed from the records too...


I have heard others assert that as well. Rome had far more than 20 legions. If fact when Trajan raised the last legion he numbered it 30 because at the time there were 29 in existence. There were no legions that were "scrubbed". Four were disbanded for cowardice. Seven were destroyed in battle. Five just disappeared. Three legions destroyed Legio XVII, Legio XVIII, and Legio XIX were unique in that their legion numbers were never used again. If that is the basis then it was 3 of the 22 numbered and 3 of the 25 total (there were multiples of legion 1, 2 and 3).

If that is the connection the three legions have the distinct (dis)honor of having lost their Aquila. All were eventually recovered but the last took almost 40 years.

Just saying. ;)
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:00 pm

just wild speculation, but could it be that they were sent on a special mission, one so vital and so secret that no-one could ever even know they existed? prehaps something to do with Chaos, whereby they are taken "off the radar" in order to combat chaos, but it relies on the dark powers never knowing about them?

records could have been purged and minds even wiped to hide their identity so that no-one could scry for them etc (even the other Marine chapters wouldnt know about them anymore)?

like i said, wild speculation. the real answer IMO exists outside the fluff, in the real world: GW wanted to give us the chance to create our own armies to fill these gaps and/or wanted a "placeholder" to insert a new army into the fluff at a later date (at the time it was probably the former, but these days its probably leaning towards the latter :roll:).

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Postby ruffian4 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:42 pm

I doubt that there is any "official fluff" on them.
Gw often leave hooks in their background that they can revisit.

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Postby Swordmaker » Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:43 pm

I may have missed this theory in here, as I've read rather quickly, but a theory I have is that one of those "Missing Legions" is the Firehawks, aka The Legion of the Damned.

I'm not sure what time period the fluff states the Firehawks were lost in a warpstorm, but if it was pre-heresy, or heresy-concurrent, they may be one of those that were lost.

If anyone here knows of official fluff on the Firehawks / LoTD, please share it, as I'm very interested! The Index Astartes entries are rather vague. (Imagine that!)
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Postby Spack » Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:47 pm

The Firehawks were part of the Cursed 21st Founding though, not the First Founding (the First Founding being the original 20 legions).
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Postby Swordmaker » Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:00 pm

Spack wrote:The Firehawks were part of the Cursed 21st Founding though, not the First Founding (the First Founding being the original 20 legions).


Ah, well that answers my query!. Thanks!!
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