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Batrep with 10 RULES QUESTIONS and awesome list synergys.

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Batrep with 10 RULES QUESTIONS and awesome list synergys.

Postby killmaimburn » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:58 pm

Ok so I’ve done loads of Khorne bike heavy, and I’ve done tzeentch demon heavy..sticking with chaos whats left??
Don't worry this isn't more than 25 sentences long, I just stick a load of rules questions in it, if you want the short version skip sentences that start with a giant star. (which are repeated out of context at the end for you rules peeps)


So my list
Epidimimus 110
10 Plaguebearers 150
=260

Chaos lord on bike with MON veterans (t6) blightgrenades,melta bomb++ the black mace.-160 (plague marines troops choice)

Sorcerer level 3 no mark, termie armour (135) (Haemorrhage,Invisible and dominate)He had Hatred from chaos traits..(handy)
With 14 cultists 1 heavy stubber (101)
an aegis gun wall(100)

Plague marines veterans with 2 plas sarge has melta bomb rhino 195
Plague marines veterans with 2 plas sarge has melta bomb rhino 195
Plague marines veterans with 2 flamer sarge has melta bomb rhino 175
5 Havocs with MON 4 autocannon 130
2 Obliterators with MON 152
2 Obliterators with MON 152
=1495
==1755

(Bike captain is nurgle bike, cultists skeletons, plaguebearers =plaguemonks..old missile launchers=autocannon)
I cast invisibility constantly on the obliterators you see out in the open throughout.
Image

*IF I’d rolled endurance on Biomancy, and given it to my cultist(MON)+sorcerer squad.having feel no pain would the tally that models with MON and feel no pain now get it on a 3+ apply to them (didn’t come up)
*If a model has jink (bike) and has blight grenades(see defensive grenades BRB)..does this mean I can stack stealh on jink for best saves??


James List was (roughly cos he scribbled it in some insane shorthand)
Lord commissar,power axe carapace, melta bombs (+1 to charge range bubble)95
Lord commissar,power axe carapace, melta bombs 95
Storm Troopers 2xmelta-105
PCS with 4 plas??? (90)
PCS with 4 plas??? (90)
Platoon blob- 3 flamers,3poweraxes,3 melta bombs-210
Platoon blob- 3 flamers,3poweraxes,3 melta bombs-210
Vet 3plas chimera- 170
Vet 3plas chimera- 170
Vet 3 melta chimera- 155
Vendetta 130
Vendetta 130

That’s 1700, but he has “if chis” 65,65,55,55chs b p
No clue what that was I think there were some more small squads?Or more chimera? It was 1750 when he talked me through it..


Mission was Diagonals(vanguard), crusade (just d3(1)+2 mysterious objective
s.. is got first on both setup rolls.. I put one in my base (it was a grav wave generator so no assaulting me :P ).. James was the one that explodes on a 1 if your camped on it.. I put another just a littlein front of the terrain piece I’d decided was mine.

So already a few things not working for LH, you’ve read previously me moaning about 2 vs 1 objectives when the 2 is dug in.

We set up
* Can I place a gun emplacement from the aegis in/on a ruin? LH said I could.Does it matter if the aegis wall is wrapped around it?

I set up all on, (bar demons) nurgle biker up front, oblits along the far edge for some sweet side shots/beatsticking, autocannons beside phalanx of cultists on terrain, rhinos of PMs surround me.

LH puts down his giant platoon blobs and 2 chimera of plas (all the rest in reserve)..he sets up just shy of any cheeky diagonal range shenanigans.

I go first
Me Turn 1, LH doesn’t want to steal initiative. Epi+plaguebearers land (and run back to my base).
Autocannons and oblits open up killing 8 or so (tally) Bike zooms to awesomely out of the way spot.
Image
Image
Image

LH T1
, His chimeras light me up, take a few shots..front giant blob makes a move for the bike,,manages to get one guy into line of sight..Declares a charge. I kill the guy who can see me

Lord kicks but, kills a few.. combat resolved. Leadership test, move up stuff. Then black mace (they’re closer due to it being “end of the phase, which we took to be after resolution).. toughness tests kill many. (we consider these to be part of the tally?*
* he refuses the challenge (he refuses all challenges)with a guy who is outside of combat range (still part of the squad).is there any rule on ranges for challenges, either for bringing in noncombatants who are locked, or not losing attacks by having one outside combat range miss his turn
Image
* The guy who could see me is now dead, does this stall the charge..we believed LOS was only relevant at time charge was declared we’re passed that now so the rest of the squad can still charge in.even though they *now* don't have LOS.
Image

My turn 2.
I start the very slow process of replacing my cultists with my plaguebearers, I move my rhinos up.I take lascannon oblit shots at chimera, kill 1, glance 1…Tally now high enough that I have ignores saves bolters/flamers/laspistols and all CCW inc the black mace.
* What counts for the tally, we counted sweeping advance, we didn’t count running off the table. We counted wounds from artefacts, we didn’t count spells (but only because he didn’t have MON). We did count passengers inside explodes vehicles, we didn’t count radius blast from 3rd party objects blowing up (it was just a quick mash bash judgement to save time)
*Can the black mace be made ap1 by the tally.. like monstrous creatures make it Ap1 (If so my nurgle biker lord may be a new awesome template).
**Doe the black mace *curse* work out wounds model by model, or do you get to do CCW shenanigans and place the failed toughness tests on models you want..We figured it picked on models.

His 300 point blob is down to 8 men due to all the attacks my MON+bike T6 is proving resilient to power axes..(lucky since I didn’t have the points to buy the guy an invulnerable)
Image
Image

LHturn2
His vendettas fly on (one far left ,one in the middle looking suspiciously like a homemade drop pod)..I fire react shot with interceptor quad gun take a HP off.
3 chimeras full of vets zoom up the right board edge towards my base.Storm troopers land behind my blocker role rhino. His stormtroopers MISS!!. And then it takes his chimeras to take it out.. much less guns hitting my plaguemarines, who now have T5, 3+ fnp, on top of blight grenade cover+crater(in a certain range)wound on a 2+ with in effect poweraxes and plasbolters. He focuses the guns he has left on them..kills2.
Smoke on the rhinos protects them from the hail of vendettas, until 1 blows at the back. But that’s it.. his whole army has done what they can do and its killed 2 rhinos and 2 plaguemarines.
(I’m worried the game has gone south LH still has a little optimism :xxknight )
Image
Image

My Turn 3
My squads advance for the big push, I immobilise centre rhino trying to get to optimal flamer position on his Warlord led blob.
Cultists and sorcerer wipe out stormtroopers with their MON+20tally armour piercing lasguns.
4 obliterators firing assault cannons fail to glance flyers, and aegis has already used interceptor.. but it doesn’t matter,because middle plague marine squad have shot with plasma.. 6 to hit, 6 to pen6 to explode and the droppod-vendetta crashes to the ground in a firey mess.WOOOO!

3 Plague marines on the right have climbed out of the wreck towards second blob.. only to find that 2ap1 flamers and plasbolter of death have made assulat over there impossible.. so instead they take out the nearest chimera (lucky)

*With the flamer hits model closest at one point was Lord commissar (IC), who passed a lookoutsir, giving it to a sergeant..LH then suggested he would then do a lookout sir on the seargent to a gribbly next along. I said chain lookout siring wasn’t permitted.. but figured it was worth checking with you lot.
Lord still chomping through the giant blob, its shrunk and due to our reading of “model” its lost a few of its poweraxes..I take it down to just the lord commissar on one wound..
Image
Image

LH TURN3
He moves his giant (still a bit on fire)blob towards my plaguemarines(first rankfiresecond rank fire),along with PCS with plasma on the flanks.. The vendetta catapults across the table.
All his plasma and all his blob everything shooting at the uber buffed plaguemarines.. and kill 1 bolter 1 flamer.(they just took 500+points of shooting to the face and lol’d)
Lord on bike finally kills commissar lord and moves off.
His right hand side chimera squad open up, and kill 2 plaguemarines leaving me with just the sarge with melta bomb.
Image
Image

My Turn 4.
Cultists move forward to my second objective (it’s a 2=nothing)
My bike goes around the terrain piece for a side shot on the chimera (in the end takes it out in close combat)
**He overwatches me, I claim good cover “can I take cover?” I say yes, because it’s a normal shooting attack..I have moved on a bike,I am within 8” so I get jink+stealth against overwatch.
I plant a melta bomb on it it explodes real pretty.

Lone sarge on right stumbles through hail of fire to plant a melta bomb on a chimera that has withstood autocannon spam..I think LH wanted it to die to free up his troops(?) but instead they are pinned.(LH not impressed).
Epi fires the now fully operationall quad gun at the vendetta along with lascannons from the 4 oblits and take out the last flyer.

Central plaguemarines slowly trudge up to giant blob 1 ap awesome flamer, 1 precision boltpistol kills a sarge, 1 regular. Loads of attacks.LH is amazed by how his 30 man blob is no more after only 3 flamer hits and a swift charge to the face.
Image
Image
LH turn 4. he has a pinned unit, he has a blob nearly melted,he has a vet squad in an exploded chimera who shoot at my HQ, but super cover within range means I take one wound(so I’m on my last but fully viable).

I believe LH would have let me tidy the table with a turn 5 but we look at each other and nod that its done.

I have first blood, I have line breaker one way or another, 2 objectives safe
He has 1 objective (far left there is a lone man out of LOS hid inside the ruin..

Pretty brutal.

And those rules questions again if TL:DR/ want easy quote


*1IF I’d rolled endurance on Biomancy, and given it to my cultist(MON)+sorcerer squad.having feel no pain would the tally that models with MON andfeel no pain now get it on a 3+ apply to them (didn’t come up)
*2If a model has jink (bike) and has blight grenades(see defensive grenades BRB)..does this mean I can stack stealh on jink for best saves??
*3 Can I place a gun emplacement from the aegis in/on a ruin? LH said I could.Does it matter if the aegis wall is wrapped around it?
*4 The guy who could see me is now dead, does this stall the charge..we believed LOS was only relevant at time charge was declared we’re passed that now so the rest of the squad can still charge in.even though they *now* don't have LOS.
*5 he refuses the challenge (he refuses all challenges)with a guy who is outside of combat range (still part of the squad).is there any rule on ranges for challenges, either for bringing in noncombatants who are locked, or not losing attacks by having one outside combat range miss his turn
*6 What counts for the tally, we counted sweeping advance, we didn’t count running off the table. We counted wounds from artifacts, we didn’t count spells (but only because he didn’t have MON). We did count passengers inside explodes vehicles, we didn’t count radius blast from 3rd party objects blowing up (it was just a quick mash bash judgement to save time)
*7Can the black mace be made ap1 by the tally.. like monstrous creatures make it Ap1 (If so my nurgle biker lord may be a new awesome template).
*8*Doe the black mace *curse* work out wounds model by model, or do you get to do CCW shenanigans and place the failed toughness tests on models you want..We figured it picked on models.
*9With the flamer hits model closest at one point was Lord commissar (IC), who passed a lookoutsir, giving it to a sergeant..LH then suggested he would then do a lookout sir on the sergeant to a gribbly next along. I said chain lookout siring wasn’t permitted.. but figured it was worth checking with you lot.
*10*He overwatches me, I claim good cover “can I take cover?” I say yes, because it’s a normal shooting attack..I have moved on a bike,I am within 8” so I get jink+stealth against overwatch.
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Re: Batrep with 10 RULES QUESTIONS and awesome list synergys.

Postby BANE » Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:46 pm

Going to just do the ones i know without having to look anything up.

2. Yes
3. Yes/No but it needs to be deployed with the ageis and as per latest FAQ all pieces need to be connected to one other, a constant line, but not nessecerly a loop.
4. No. LOS is only needed to declare the charge
5. No. As long as the challenger and the challenged are both in the same combat they dont need to be in B2B or anything
9. No. No chain LoSiring
10.Yes. Normal shooting attack at point immediately after the charge is declared, with LOS, cover etc for models where they are prior to moving in the assault phase.

6/10 not bad without the BRB to refer to
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Re: Batrep with 10 RULES QUESTIONS and awesome list synergys.

Postby lostandthedamned » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:48 pm

5. This isn't correct:Challenges are issued at the start of each Fight Sub-phase before any pile-ins

pg64 Characters who cannot fight or strike blows cannot accept challenges.
&
pg64 If you refuse(the challenge) your opponent gets to choose one of your characters from those that could have accepted. The chosen model cannot strike blow this turn.

So if his character wasn't engaged not only can he not accept but he also can't be picked by you as the refusing model.
Remember all Squad Sargents also count as characters and can also be forced not to fight.

Useful against squads with multiple characters. example a Marine Sqaud has a Sargent with Power Fist and a Captain attached.
If you charge them in such a way that the Captain is not within 2" of a model in base contact but the Sargent will be you can issue the challenge and have him make the decision over whether to a)risk losing his Sargent to combat before he can strike or b)Forfit his powerfist attacks for this turn.

Makes the tactics of charges much more important.
If you get too close before hand you guarantee the charge but all opposing models will be enaged (you msut get into b2b if possible)
However if you charge from further back to engage lightly and get an advantageous challenge you are more at risk of failing the charge due to overwatch fire.
This could be why fleet doesn't say "failed charges" for it's reroll. You could choose to reroll only 1 dice of a successful charge to gain light contact and use the pilein move to fully engage after a challenge is accepted/refused.
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Re: Batrep with 10 RULES QUESTIONS and awesome list synergys.

Postby BANE » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:38 pm

Ok 5/5
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Re: Batrep with 10 RULES QUESTIONS and awesome list synergys.

Postby killmaimburn » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:22 pm

8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O
lostandthedamned wrote:* *each** Fight Sub-phase...
pg64 Characters who cannot fight or strike blows cannot accept challenges.

I'll go one further than Dagnabbit and say..gosh. We were so merrily dancing around talking about how we're the only people who play focused witchfires properly. I totally accepted first glance info on challenges as gospel.

We read
""only one challenge can be issued per close combat"
"once one challenge has been made no furtherchallenges can be issued".
but your saying the bit after that "whilst the previous challenge is ongoing".. and the first sentance on that page about being issued at the start of the fight phase means you can keep challenging and (IF the guy keeps refusing) keep someone from participating until they are the last man left (herioic stand)

We have totally been playing it as only one challenge issued per close combat period..LH then loses one of his attacks guys for JUST the first phase comes back laughing.
Meaning on my close combat chaos army winning streak I've only rolled on the boon table for my CHs 3 times in 14+ games.
:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:
Is there a greater, clearer sentence/quote to say they may be issued every player turn unless one is ongoing, or is the above all the salient information? Cos Khorne is coming out looking for skulls tommorow :twisted:
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Re: Batrep with 10 RULES QUESTIONS and awesome list synergys.

Postby lostandthedamned » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:16 pm

Yep Page 65 - under round 2 re-enforces the point.
Even though further challenges cannot be issued in a combat until the existing challenge has been resolved there is a possibility that another character in the fight might intercede in a glorious intervention.

Your opponent will get the chance to issue a challenge first next round but if he doesn't then you still can...

In my example if the Sargent survives (and doesn't kill me back) The Captain (or any other character who has entered in the same combat maybe by charging in their own turn) can also take an initiative test to "tag in" and replace him in the challenge.

This is the ideal situation to use something like the Grey Knight Warding Stave.
Equipped to a Justicar, any Character can be held up until someone who can kill him arrives.
Single Characters can't refuse challenges so Big Gribblies are very vunerable to this.
Who cares if you've got a Daemon Prince of Ultimate nasty.
Because the Squad should be setup to be at least 5 men + Sgt you get a reroll for Moral support. This can be used on saving throws as well as th/tw.
2+ rerollable Inv FTW.
Then when Mr GK Grand Master turns up, he can tag in and deliver a beatdown.
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Re: Batrep with 10 RULES QUESTIONS and awesome list synergys.

Postby Ljundhammer » Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:56 am

So to summarise:
1) Challenge made by a (Ch)
2) Challenge can only be accepted by an opposing (Ch) who could fight (I thought this was the rule - can't find the reference - any help?)
3) If challenge accepted then (Ch)s fight
4) If challenge denied then opposing (Ch) who is elligible for challenge is chosen by the (Ch) who made the challenge and can not fight in this round (he can, however, fight in subsequent rounds)
5) If (Ch)s are in a challenge then another (Ch) in subsequent rounds can 'tag in' with an initiative test

Is that correct?

So how many times can you challenge? Is it:
a) once per combat;
b) once per phase;
c) once per turn;
d) until someone accepts?
How do subsequent charges into a continuing combat change this? (For the the record I think it's (a) & further charges are irrelevant)
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Re: Batrep with 10 RULES QUESTIONS and awesome list synergys.

Postby killmaimburn » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:01 am

I'll retell LATDs stuff, because its totally not how we read it.
Ljundhammer wrote:2) Challenge can only be accepted by an opposing (Ch) who could fight (I thought this was the rule - can't find the reference - any help?)
Last sentance on accepting a challenge paragraph "Characters that
cannotfight or strike blows(including those that are not engaged with an enemy model)cannot accept challenges."
Ljundhammer wrote:Is that correct?

So how many times can you challenge? Is it:
a) once per combat;
b) once per phase;
c) once per turn;
d) until someone accepts?
How do subsequent charges into a continuing combat change this? (For the the record I think it's (a) & further charges are irrelevant)
[/quote]
This is the incredible way we've been playing wrong..
under round 2 (as LATD says) "Even though further challenges cannot be issued in a combat
until the existing challenge has been resolved" then first sentance on challenges back a page "Challenges are issued at the start of the Fight sub-phase,"
The answer is C, once per fight sub phase if there are eligble CHs and no current challenge within that multicombat.
So at the least every turn I'm within your gaitn melee blob i take a poweraxe out of the equation or duke it out man to man upgrading all my guys perpetually. 8O
Its amazing how we tripped up on that (anyone else?)

I'm still blaming "Only one challenge can be issued per close combat"right near the start, it takes reading close combat as "a round of close combat" to fit all the other rules.
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Re: Batrep with 10 RULES QUESTIONS and awesome list synergys.

Postby Ljundhammer » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:14 am

If there is no challenge, and it has been denied, then hasn't the challenge been resolved?

Can one character meat out multiple challenges?

Note : I'm running without a rulebook in front of me - hence the questions!
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Re: Batrep with 10 RULES QUESTIONS and awesome list synergys.

Postby killmaimburn » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:20 am

Ljundhammer wrote:If there is no challenge, and it has been denied, then hasn't the challenge been resolved?
yes it is resolved for that turn, the decliner may not play a role in the battle, it is resolved.. next turn I would issue a challenge again, you would refuse again i would pick power axe, he would be out again.. infinitum until he was the only one left.. then last man standing he may not refuse a challenge.
(note this is from the view of chaos who MUST challenge, normal gameflow wouldn't do that)

Ljundhammer wrote:Can one character meat out multiple challenges?
You mean sequential (just for clarity ,as only one is possible at a time) The best I can do is say it doesn't say you can't, it does say if you run and are caught (fail to flee) I can reissue exactly the same challenge again.(even though its been accepted and no one has died yet)
http://prometheusatwar.com/2012/09/when ... e-tactica/ (posted link before..abusepuppy in comments section backs up my interpretation of what will happen in our setup)
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Re: Batrep with 10 RULES QUESTIONS and awesome list synergys.

Postby Ljundhammer » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:39 am

I agree.
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Re: Batrep with 10 RULES QUESTIONS and awesome list synergys.

Postby BANE » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:47 am

This is why i run units that have ICs attached with a Sgt with the best INV save i can give him. He takes the challange and hopefully survives until the IC has done the damage to the squad. If the squad doesnt run the IC then tags in to help the Sgt out. If you have the points give the Sgt a Power maul so he can make the enemy IC INT1 from concussive then tag in your IC at the start of the next assault phase so he swings first (depending on load out)
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Re: Batrep with 10 RULES QUESTIONS and awesome list synergys.

Postby killmaimburn » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:24 pm

I've heard the ward stave sergeant argument (and not understood it till last night)
I'm not sold on "power mauls make sense now", relies on you needing to drop someones initiative(them being equal or higher and being multi wounder), relies on the strength vs Ap tradeoff being effective (not checked web tells me power swords inflict .75 wounds, power mauls inflict .4166667 wounds against meq) .. so it would be a pretty tailored challenge where it worked out mathsbetter.. Old skool MCs with a poor save would get ransacked by it ([dark]eldar multiwounders its been a while since I had the pleasure).
So we were the only ones playing it totally conservatively...oh :oops: that makes it worse somehow.
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Re: Batrep with 10 RULES QUESTIONS and awesome list synergys.

Postby BANE » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:51 pm

I only take the maul on my Sgt if it complements my IC, so he likely be an I4 3+ save power sword (not axe) type of guy, a libby lets say.
Most enemy IC will own him, but if the Maul takes him down to Int 1 first i can step in and activate my force weapon to hopefully ID the IC. Very situational i know but i do this only for units with ICs attached and only if it complements, i wouldnt do it for an Int 1 IC for example.
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Re: Batrep with 10 RULES QUESTIONS and awesome list synergys.

Postby KInG » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:46 pm

Didn't know ic coud tag in.

@ Bane: That makes your ba combo a little more frail if the first dude survived and Sammael stepped in with ap2 pw.

Thx for the batrep you two. Btw. ;)
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