How do you deal with 3+ invulnerable & FNP units?

With shooting, I suppose just lots and lots of shots. What about assault?

(This may belong in the tactica column.)

I guess we are talking storm shield termies?

normal FNP squads, I hit them with weapons of no save, so lascannons etc. Deathwing squad with apothecary and storm shields would be a night mare, but cause enough damage through mass shooting would be my first instinct, followed by mass pile in the assault. Although my callidus assassin does well by herself as well.

With a Ctan??
Which unit combo are you talking about..what points brackets (do you want IA solutions?)What are we allowed to stick against it, one particular race?
If its not a imperial termie unit and they still cost a lot..I'd probably bog the unit down with a dreadnought or something else they couldn't hurt and just remove them from the game tactically rather than literally.

One of the guys at the shop was planning an SM biker group w/ shields and apothecary (and fists and IC w/ lightning claws, etc. so a dreadnaught wouldn't really help.)
I don't know what chapter he is building, he told me, but my memory... er... now what did I do with that?

NEWay, there seems to be more and more 3+ invul FNP coming this way from different armies and I'm just wondering how to handle it before MY army gets 'updated'.

Probably a complete update to ALL the tacticas will be required, but general ideas are urgently needed. (grins)

With biker groups, take advantage of the terrain so that if he wants to come in to get you he has to take dangerous terrain tests.

Small elite units, no matter what special rules they have will always be vulnerable to massed firepower from any type of weapon. Obviously things like meltaguns give you a huge advantage but don't underestimate the number of failed saves and FNP rolls 30+ normal bolter hits are going to get. Concentration of firepower is probably the answer.

Or in combat..powerfists, or a tarpit (or equivalent) as KMB suggests.

IA red scorpians apothecaries only in tactical squads..
Cheesy DA don't get the 3++ storm shields
BA=same I believe.
SMurfs you now only get to use apothecaries in command squads (and unlike BA you can't have ICs with the power of an apothecary roaming around joining other squads)..so the squad he's talking about is a command squad which would be 265 for a (5man squad on bikes with 4 with storm shields..its still a bit of a silly iffy raw thing as to whether apothecarys are vets and can take hand based stuff if you want to push it) Assuming 2 powerfists 1 pair oflightning claw the squads going to cost 345 for 5 3+ saves (with apoth)..that will fall to massed fire really nicely
Chaos and guard should do well with drive by plas, most of the other can handle them in some form or another of tarpit or smackdown..what codex would you like to use for a solution?

+You need a captain of some sort to be eligible to take them(that bumps up the cost)
I have no idea if they can become scoring (as they are a 5man bike squad) might be worth a thought or too..makes them much more usefull.

And yes with 2 fists they will still only get 6 attacks on the charge, against 3 ironclads worth of points if you wish....their fists go after yours..and they need 5s to glance.. i know which I'd lay my money on point for point.
I looked at command squads a while back and saw what you could do.. fortunately they priced most of the uber things out of actually being very uber.

Mass firepower > tarpitting > sending something nasty to smash them > drop a rock/rulebook on them.

w/ 2 powerfists, 2 ccw & captain w/ lightning claws, they wound/kill maybe 8 or so MEQ models on the charge and maybe 3 glances and a pen vs 12 armor.

1 PF and 9 ccw counter attacks kill... maybe 1.
2 PF and 20 ccw counter attacks kill ... more than likely 1.

so the tarpit would have to be fearless.

mass shooting: 30 bolter shots, 20 hits, 7 wounds, 5 saves, 1 FNP save = 1 model dying.

I dunno.. 345 pts that soaks up all enemy shooting for 2 turns? sounds like a real deal.

Thats just being negative., don't let the guy get you down.
Powerfists don't get the +1 for 2 ccws, they go last and are grouped so that might be the one falls over.
Tarpit- fearless or more likely under the new rules stubborn(e.g. all the kantor lists) (as they'll pass and not need to lose blokes doing it)
Mass shooting, I'd never have a squad that only had bolters.
If your adding a captain as what the unit represents its going to come in at at least 500 points.(and they are capped by ICs so you can only take 2)
(vague guess maths its late) 6 man (chosen squad or) havoc squad in a rhino with 4 (or more) plasma guns drive 12" disembark 2", fire at max range 12"s... 8 plasma shots ..5.3 hit 3+ saves only,= 1.4 dead, you can have two of those and still be 100 points under.. halving the bike squad (and potentially removing the fists) straight away.
Against AV12 most are WS4, and any vehicle would have moved 0.5" or is daft.. so 4s to hit.3 of the 6 hit..AV12 =4s to glance or better= 1.5 have the potential of glancing or doing more.(and thats after being smacked in the face by a dreadnought that costs a quarter the units cost) (2.5 have the chance to glance or better against rear armour, +.3 or so from the LC)


How does it stack against the ork one (that makes everyone cack themselves)
Warboss (cybork bike, power klaw, attack squig, ), and 4 Nobs (2 power klaws, bosspole, 3 big choppas)+Painboy (grot orderly)(13 wounds with an always 4++ against shooting in effect) or the seer council on bikes that everyone seems to be taking to the GTs this year.
To me it looks same or less.
I wonder what a unit that was able to force the charge on them would look like (e.g. points equivilant 2 plas pistol,fist, full jump infantry with shrike gain charge) Yes I know the bloke will probably kep them in reserve but meh that makes him have to play to more variables.

vindicator?

3 vindicators and a lot of change.

ah, thanks.
I'm still not sure how that will play out since he is also going to be drop podding some nasty AT stuff while I'm trying to kill the bikes.

Actually, I can't wait for him to get it all painted. He fields a lot of units that seem tougher than they actually turn out to be, and then you never see them again. (g)

Oh or another idea which I've used with some success is the null zone librarian (in a transport with a squad).. 3++s with "2nd save" best in game? Ok now reroll them.
2/3rds pass.. but then those have to be strained through a further 2/3rds sieve.Which my wife believes is 4 in9 (I'm crap at binormial probability I'm afraid heres a lots of links to places that are good at mathammering 11 22 33 Complex odds dice calculator ) (and if your hitting them with ap1 or 2 or st8 they don't get any other chances
He's multi purpose cheap and doesn't actually tailor your list.. It just makes those rending ponies (swarms of harlies/assualt termies/and of course any poor bugger with a demon list ) brick themselves if they are normally confident and simple.

Angelwing wrote:Mass firepower > tarpitting > sending something nasty to smash them > drop a rock/rulebook on them.

I find that it is simple - Take a chair firmly by the back panel. Raise to at least shoulder height. Beat opponent soundly and repeatedly over the head with it until they agree not to take that unit again. There - Done!