Paulmc, if I ever manage to get time to return to the Raiders camp I would like to try Bolt Action. I agree with your comments about 40K as I am still happy to play but with 5th Ed,.

Just a small thought...(im not defendig 40k some rules do need to be looked at again) but havs anyone thought bout waiting for the codexe (and before shouting about price search and you will find a pdf file somewhere when they are released) before deciding i mean we are all playing 6th rules with 5th codexes

Stryder, I think some of the issues with the rules are not related to the codex used - it's a more general problem. As I said before, my issues really lie with wound allocation, challenges, random charge distance in the 41st millenium, hull points and the use of allies. The new 'dexes will smooth over some of the issues with unique character weapons and traits which have been faqed in the meantime, but the fundamental problems will still exist. Such a shame . . .

i can see where your coming from berger and i totally agree but in all fairness i can see why they changed some of the rulings...example the challenges existed way back in 2nd and they were taken away for 3rd and onwards and so (to me anyway) it felt strange 2 mighty characters and their units going toe to toe only for the leaders to be the last one standing because wound allocation was in the players hands, so issuing challenges is a great way for leaders to prove who is the mightiest of all without sacrificing a unit just so their prowess can be shown in style...ill agree with random charge distance that is a bitch and whoever thought of it wants shooting with 20 tau rifles in rapid fire range...and as for wound allocation, as i pointed out above it was in players hands so take this for another example, 6 models under a large blast template (including a vet sgt heavy wep guy and an IC)..now lets assume that the blast wep is from a demolisher cannon (so anything suffering a wound is dead no questions asked) and scores 5 killing blows, in 5th the heavy wep, vet sgt and IC guy survive because the owning player can pick 2 other plebs who are not under the blast template whereas in 6th theres at least a chance to save them due to 'look out sir' (not 100% sure bout this havent read that part of the rulebook yet) and the rest die the way they should...maybe im wrong and im just playing blind because this is the first edtion ive been around for since its release since 3rd (quit shortly after 4th and came back a year before 6th) and im wanting to give it the benefit of the doubt or maybe its just some unconscious (or conscious due to that ridiculous pricing GW have) feeling that makes people not want to play or collect

I stopped playing 40k the better part of a year ago. Shelved the Eldar, marines and GK.
I just got bored with the rules, the arguments, and seeing the same armies day in, day out.

A new club started up near me, and Infinity, Saga, FoW, and a bunch of other games took off and reinspired the local jaded oldies (like me) - many of whom fell out of love with WHFB after playing it for decades.

Infinity is my go-to for SF gaming these days.

I wasn't going to post on this subject, but the more I read and the more I've experienced the more I feel I have to!

It seems to me that most peoples beef with the rules are more to do with the fact that tried and tested tactics no longer work. It's a new edition the excitement surly is in adapting the tactical knowledge you've gained over various editions and battles to suit. It's an opportunity to flex that grey matter and prove you still have what it takes that your strategic might will prevail no matter what curve-ball you have been thrown.... Or is that just me?

This kind of attitude is fine for a forum, but it's spilling over in to all the local clubs. It's started towards the end of 5th with people getting board of the stagnation that happens at the end of every edition. Then when 6th hit it got worse as people took that negativity into the new game slating it before they've even played a game and some before they had read the rules!

Ok now that main thing that has been bugging me. I had a break towards the back of 5th and hardly got a game in but that was mostly because I had a baby on the way, but when I came back at the start of 6th the damage had been done no one who played 40k before I took a break currently plays and the few that do now are all new to the clubs I go to with the people I used to enjoy playing sat slagging off he very game that made these clubs possible in the first place!

I can't say that this is true for everyone but it's extremely off putting and I've thought a few times about just not going any more as I just don't want to here it. I'm not saying that people can't have their own opinions, but when it's to the detriment of the gaming environment isn't it time to reign it in?

All the clubs I go to are much much lower on number of games being played and I know that not all of this has to do with this attitude shift, but real it can't be helping!

I'll also state I'll not be leaving any of the clubs I use, I just needed to get this of my cheast.

Darklighter wrote:It seems to me that most peoples beef with the rules are more to do with the fact that tried and tested tactics no longer work. It's a new edition the excitement surly is in adapting the tactical knowledge you've gained over various editions and battles to suit. It's an opportunity to flex that grey matter and prove you still have what it takes that your strategic might will prevail no matter what curve-ball you have been thrown.... Or is that just me?

Given that a lot of people, certainly most of the people on this forum, go and spend time and money getting into other games, I think it's a weak argument to blame it on unwillingness to try new things or learn new tactics.

I'd go through this very thread and point out where this has been stated to be the case, but that would be a very crass thing to do!

My last post was a little short (I was in the middle of feeding the baby) I'll expand my statement by adding this. People attitudes toward new projects (be it gaming systems or otherwise) is very different to that of existing ones. People get very stubborn when forced to change (like an edition change), but that same person will more openly except a change that has been initiated by them selves when starting a fresh. It's all to do with attitudes and perception. I also never once stated people weren’t up for trying new things, just that they are unwilling to adapt there is a huge difference between these things.

Niki (Darklighter) I can understand your comments and having thought long and hard I am prepared to give 40K a go. If you are free for a game on Monday let me know and I will evict the spiders etc out of my SW box. Ian

Nick, I'll be back home in a couple of weeks so I'll give you a game (I promise I'll make it this time!).

After my initial reluctance to change I gave in, bought the rule book and was fairly impressed. I have now ordered Dark Vengeance (for the DA models and mini rulebook) and am looking at doing a DA army, I had toyed with the idea of doing them before the end of 5th but the new models in DV have made my mind up to do it. Plus I've got a load of SM stuff that has been sitting around half built and unpainted in my loft for years! I felt that after 20 years of playing I had invested too much time (and a considerable amount of money!) to just walk away from it. I am now going into it with an open mind. The main problem for me though is that as I work away I just don't play as much as I would like.

@Mark Sound good man I'll see you when you get back. It's a good boxed set for DA players I've been tempted to get some of the terminators to convert my self.

@Ian I've got a game this Monday (one of the new lads), but I'll play you the week after and help you learn the ropes of this new edition if you'd like. Matt is popping down with me this Monday (unless something comes up) to see what the club is like, he might give you a game (he's quite new to gaming). I don't mind reff'ing while playing my own game to help you guys out.

And now to add something more on topic.
My main concern is for the local area. I don't want to see the 40k scene totally disappear or go underground so to speak just for the sake of one edition. Maybe this is just a selfish hope, but I do think it would be a shame. I'm also glad people are being understanding and that I didn't just get flamed off the forum.

Nick, I think one of the big problems for people is that it is probably the most radical overhaul of the system since 2nd to 3rd ed and I remember at the time people saying God what have GW done, they've ruined it (myself included!). I think that this train of thought, coupled with the massive price rises and Codex creep of the last few years, is what is making people reluctant to give it a fair go, 3rd ed took a lot of getting used to after 2nd ed and I was close to giving up but one day it all clicked and I realised that 3rd ed was very good. I hope that this new edition takes away the Codex creep (judging by some of the reactions to the new Codex CSM this is a hope I have) and the identikit armies you see a lot of.

BTW you'll have to be patient with me when we play as it will be my first game of 6th ed!

where is the ironbeards? because i might pop down on monday and give you a game ian

@Mark I understand. I nearly got all bent up about 6th when I was following the rumour mill pre-release. As for price I'd rather it be cheaper who wouldn't, but I still maintain it's value for money when compared to other systems and model ranges for both quality and support. Even games GW has left in the dust the community that surrounds them keep them alive far far longer than any other range I've ever seen. This is not saying that other companies/manufacturers are not good, more that I feel that GW are still better. But all that can be argued until the cows come home, lol.

I'll make sure you don't embarrass your self with not knowing the rules fully, after all it's not like we'll be playing for keeps or anything!

@John It's at Coatham memorial hall aka the Boxing club just near where the library used to be. Ian might have better directions though.