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6th Ed stuff

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6th Ed stuff

Postby Baragash » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:41 am

Not sure if this is reliable to put in rumours, though I have heard a few of these from other sources before... (hopefully not re-posting old news)

http://bloodofkittens.com/network/members/rideroftheerk/activity/14616/

* first 6th edition codexes, but release before or with rulebook, small release with single or two waves: Black Templars (1 waves: 2x plactic, 2x Finecast), Tau (1 wave: 3x plastic boxes, 4x Finecast), Necrons (2 waves)

* first real 6th edition codex: Codex Chaos Legions, really big release in three waves, doesn’t invalidate Codex Chaos Space Marines which gets extensive White Dwarf update as Codex Renegade Space Marines

* two starter sets, each with rules, dices, movement markers, mission booklet, one with Dark Angels and fitting scenery, the other with Black Legion and Chaos scenery. You can combine both to play the campaign or use one set alone to play a selection of dumbed down scenarios against every other force, first starter set that comes with a model for a well established special character

* 6th edition is finished rulewise for some time now, the overall goal is to fix some of the long time problems of the game system. Expect a lot more fundamental improvements than last edition. The rules were even more ambitious at some stage of development, but didn’t get approved as they were too far away from the established rules. The main designer left company and his successors brought the rules back in line with the existing codexes. The rules are nonetheless a bigger step forward than from 4th to 5th. Changes are so big that the next edition relies partial on erratas to fix old codexes. Development relied heavily on feedback of veteran playtesters. You can see some results of this new approach by the way the FAQs were handled in the last months. All codexes since Codex Tyranids were written with the new rules in mind, especially the new mission and reserve structure.

* The main design goals are: one book to rule them all, heroic characters, visceral combat, streamlined mechanism, cleaned up presentation and strategy before chance

* strong narrative focus on Chaos, perspective shifting from the Empire to the struggle between free races and the Warp

* the biggest rule changes:
- similar ballistic to hit chart as wound chart: compare BS to target’s speed and unit type. BS 3 hits moving infantry on 4+, but lightning fast jetbikes on 6+ and stationary tank on 2+… HUGE
- victory points are back, but with another twist: you get two victory points if an unit holds an objective for an entire game turn, if a scoring unit holds one, you get three and one if you destroy a squad leader or vehicle
- before the game there is a bidding contest for the opportunity of the first turn, if you bid more strategic points you can go first, but the enemy can spent these points on stratagems as in Cities of Death: 22 generic stratagems – for example for one point you can decide on night fighting or place an automatic gun, for four you can shift your reserves, most expensive stratagems are at 12 points and are really drastic, every unspent point can be used once a game for a reroll
- new turn sequence: prepare-movement-assault-shooting-consolidate
new phase “consolidate” phase for random movements, jetpack movements, pursuits, morale checks/effects and resolving shooting reactions
assault before shooting – big units are real roadblocks!<<

rideroftheerk · 1 day, 18 hours ago
Some more examples for the development doctrines
One rulebook for all:
- flyer rules are incorporated in the main rules
- narrative rule section that expands core rules: formations, super heavies, gaining experience
- modular rules, core rules can easily be expanded by narratives rules or another expansion set

Heroic characters:
- independent characters more powerful, armour save and invulnerable save at the same time
- squad leaders more important, no more 50% rallying threshold, unit can rally as long as squad leader lives
- independent characters can snipe

More visceral combat:
- standard cover only 5+ now, Feel No Pain (1) only on 5+
- slow slogging units very vulnerable
- some weapon types are specialized in taking out specific unit types and are incredible good at doing this (sniper vs. infantry without armour), but on the other hand ordnance vs flyer isn’t going to do much

streamlined:
- no more random movement at all
- 5 general types of psychic powers
- wound allocation like 4th edition on unit basis, but attacker can chose every 5th wound to go to a single model (sniper weapon every second wound)
- artillery is normal immobile vehicle squadron, crew has no other game purpose than to be a counter for rate of fire and attacks

clean up of combusted rules:
- there are tiers for most of the special rules. Instant Death (2) circumvents Eternal Warrior (1) for example. Feel No Pain (1) is 5+, Feel No Pain (2) is 4+ and Feel No Pain (3) is 3+. If no value is given, the special rule is tier 1.
- no more difference between leadership test and morale test
- terrain rules on a single page, true line of sight, non-vehicles models are ignored altogether, rules for special terrain like bunkers, ruins or deathworld mangroves in narrative rule section

less randomness, more strategic options:
- more elaborate reserve rules, can nominate turn of arrvial and has only small change to arrive earlier or later, or can intervene behind enemy lines, arrives randomly but can hinder enemy reserves, must be distributed evenly between turn two and three, later arrivals only randomly
-no more random game length
-no roll for first turn
-deep striking units more than 18” from enemy away don’t scatter, but landing in 6” is much more dangerous
- movement impairing effects from pinning weapons even if morale check is passed (if roll is above halved Ld), Fearless not immune to this, but only effected if rolled over full Ld
- more reactions to shooting than going to the ground depending on unit type and special rules. bikes can evade (3+ cover as same as before, but cannot assault or shoot next turn), jump troops can fly high, units with Stealth can attempt to vanish, …
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Re: 6th Ed stuff

Postby Jay » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:26 am

This sounds excellent, however being a rumor I'm taking this with a pinch of salt.
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Re: 6th Ed stuff

Postby lostandthedamned » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:38 am

If true then very interesting.
Makes the game a great deal more complex, and by the look of it in a good way.
FAQ/errataing all armies at once would solve one of my big issues that different FAQs written by different people contradict each other. A unified approach would be good.
Ideas of speed and size would make tactics much more important, along with units getting killed more (5th edition has always struck me as waning to keep models on the board as much as possible.) look very nice.
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Re: 6th Ed stuff

Postby killmaimburn » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:13 am

Some good some bad..
Totally loving that chaos get put front and centre ( :3some :3some :3some )
Streamlining vs there being 3 subsections of FNP.
Streamlining vs getting rid of magic 7s to hit principle. (I hope that means fast stuff loses its cover save to balance it out rather than creating super skimmers again now with added fliers).
Streamlining pickups vs a bidding system with strategems...If there is one slightly broken strategem its going to be in every single Muthafudging game I hope they playtest the crap out of them.

Push to posh, fliers and super heavies embedded into the ruleset...I'm not spending any more money on super quality finkast.But again super spiral bump.
Really don't trust being more in control of reserves AND getting rid of random game length.. Yeah outflank needed a fix/bump.. but the rest of it was the pinnacle of reserves and stuff in my mind.

No shooting then assualting....mind blown.So its an either/or :| ...That really hurts marines (and orks) doesn't it, alrounders who make up for not being CC super by being adequate at both=good at assualt after thinning them out..I can't see where that ones going to go.
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Re: 6th Ed stuff

Postby Ljundhammer » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:28 am

* 6th edition is finished rulewise for some time now, the overall goal is to fix some of the long time problems of the game system. Expect a lot more fundamental improvements than last edition.


That can only be good.

The rules were even more ambitious at some stage of development, but didn’t get approved as they were too far away from the established rules. The main designer left company and his successors brought the rules back in line with the existing codexes.


Oh god no. Half Alessio, half Ward. Some bits streamlined beyond recognistion, then bulked out with masses of caveats and special options.

The rules are nonetheless a bigger step forward than from 4th to 5th. Changes are so big that the next edition relies partial on erratas to fix old codexes.


In other words - you thought power creep was bad now, wait until you see the new books!

Development relied heavily on feedback of veteran playtesters.


Oh god no. They're washing their hands of this already. I can see it now "You asked for these changers, so they're perfect! You can't say otherwise, you chose it." I don't wan't veteran playtesters, I want competiotion winners & good players to try and break it. The playstesters up to now appear to be inept fluff monkies.

You can see some results of this new approach by the way the FAQs were handled in the last months. All codexes since Codex Tyranids were written with the new rules in mind, especially the new mission and reserve structure.


Hmmm, like Chaos & Dark Angels & Orks & Daemons for 5th ed then...

* The main design goals are: one book to rule them all, heroic characters, visceral combat, streamlined mechanism, cleaned up presentation and strategy before chance


So combat becomes more important, can't we just leave that to Fantasy and, I don't know, make guns useful in 40,000 years time?

* strong narrative focus on Chaos, perspective shifting from the Empire to the struggle between free races and the Warp


Or, "none of the new guys can be arsed upkeeping the awesome fluff that's been developing for 30 years, we can't be arsed reading it, so instead we'll have "Spikey models" v's "non-spikey models"

* the biggest rule changes:
- similar ballistic to hit chart as wound chart: compare BS to target’s speed and unit type. BS 3 hits moving infantry on 4+, but lightning fast jetbikes on 6+ and stationary tank on 2+… HUGE


I like this

- victory points are back, but with another twist: you get two victory points if an unit holds an objective for an entire game turn, if a scoring unit holds one, you get three and one if you destroy a squad leader or vehicle


I can't find a picard picture big enough to do this justice.

- before the game there is a bidding contest for the opportunity of the first turn, if you bid more strategic points you can go first, but the enemy can spent these points on stratagems as in Cities of Death: 22 generic stratagems – for example for one point you can decide on night fighting or place an automatic gun, for four you can shift your reserves, most expensive stratagems are at 12 points and are really drastic, every unspent point can be used once a game for a reroll


Oh god, more stuff foer them to playtest badley and totally cock up. Apococrap stratagems, yeah, that's a good precident you've set yourselves there guys.

- new turn sequence: prepare-movement-assault-shooting-consolidate
new phase “consolidate” phase for random movements, jetpack movements, pursuits, morale checks/effects and resolving shooting reactions
assault before shooting – big units are real roadblocks!<<


So assault is more imprtant - see above.

One rulebook for all:
- flyer rules are incorporated in the main rules
- narrative rule section that expands core rules: formations, super heavies, gaining experience
- modular rules, core rules can easily be expanded by narratives rules or another expansion set


Can they not just dump the main rulebook, keep apococrap & say the base army is now 5,000 points?

"WE DEMAND ALL OF YOUR MONIES!!!!!"

Heroic characters:
- independent characters more powerful, armour save and invulnerable save at the same time
- squad leaders more important, no more 50% rallying threshold, unit can rally as long as squad leader lives
- independent characters can snipe


I'm trying to remember if there was an edition which was rightly reviled and degradingly termed "Herohammer". No, that can't be true, surely...

More visceral combat:
- standard cover only 5+ now, Feel No Pain (1) only on 5+
- slow slogging units very vulnerable
- some weapon types are specialized in taking out specific unit types and are incredible good at doing this (sniper vs. infantry without armour), but on the other hand ordnance vs flyer isn’t going to do much


Ok, I like these, although the middle one smacks of "you people haven't bought enough tanks! Now buy some more"

streamlined:
- no more random movement at all
- 5 general types of psychic powers
- wound allocation like 4th edition on unit basis, but attacker can chose every 5th wound to go to a single model (sniper weapon every second wound)
- artillery is normal immobile vehicle squadron, crew has no other game purpose than to be a counter for rate of fire and attacks


So bits are streamlined, and bits are more complicated - I think I might have guessed this above...

clean up of combusted rules:
- there are tiers for most of the special rules. Instant Death (2) circumvents Eternal Warrior (1) for example. Feel No Pain (1) is 5+, Feel No Pain (2) is 4+ and Feel No Pain (3) is 3+. If no value is given, the special rule is tier 1.
- no more difference between leadership test and morale test
- terrain rules on a single page, true line of sight, non-vehicles models are ignored altogether, rules for special terrain like bunkers, ruins or deathworld mangroves in narrative rule section


These actually seem sensible. Apart from TLOS, which is still crap unless you invest in significant terrain building. And this is dependant on where you play...

less randomness, more strategic options:
- more elaborate reserve rules, can nominate turn of arrvial and has only small change to arrive earlier or later, or can intervene behind enemy lines, arrives randomly but can hinder enemy reserves, must be distributed evenly between turn two and three, later arrivals only randomly
-no more random game length
-no roll for first turn
-deep striking units more than 18” from enemy away don’t scatter, but landing in 6” is much more dangerous
- movement impairing effects from pinning weapons even if morale check is passed (if roll is above halved Ld), Fearless not immune to this, but only effected if rolled over full Ld
- more reactions to shooting than going to the ground depending on unit type and special rules. bikes can evade (3+ cover as same as before, but cannot assault or shoot next turn), jump troops can fly high, units with Stealth can attempt to vanish, …


So some bits are simpler and some are more complex...

Difficult to assess. But looks lie a change for changes sake at the moment. I am very happy for a 'shake up' ogf he rules if it's done properly. Unfortunately my initial comments regarding the number of people involved - who appear to have different objectives - makes me fear this!
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Re: 6th Ed stuff

Postby mattjgilbert » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:37 am

Agree there are some good and some bad. I fear though that we will all me lamenting 5th ed a year after this comes out if all the above are true.

More tactical is good. More complex isn't necessarily good. 3rd ed was simplified to enable to the game to scale to the size they wanted. I hope 6th ed doesn't clash with this principle.

The skills with levels (skill (n)) is already in Kings of War and now Warpath too, suggesting this bit was Alessio's input.
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Re: 6th Ed stuff

Postby conscriptboris » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:58 am

I'm not that interested in the rules atm, I'll find them out in due course, however, does anyone know what the box sets are going to be like? 

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Re: 6th Ed stuff

Postby Cain Tiberius » Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:11 pm

Oh great... And I was just gettin used to 5th ed :/

It seems that GW is just thinking about our money as usual. And less about making a decent game with consistant fluff.
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Re: 6th Ed stuff

Postby estarriol » Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:47 pm

2nd ed was Herohammer.

I liked the late 3rd ed (with the extra close combat stuff) rules best.

But I still have the basic issue of: If everyone has a gun, why is there so much emphasis on melee, and I can move from cover, to cover across your enemies entire firing line, pull faces while in sight and STILL not be shot at..
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Re: 6th Ed stuff

Postby Ljundhammer » Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:59 pm

3rd ed was an abomination to all things. I was going to put something witty at the end there, but I don't need to, the sentence stands as it is.

5th is good. It needs a few tweaks, mainly:
KP v's VP
Decent scenarios
Random game length - I'm still not sure if this is good or bad, but I doubt I'd miss it...
Updated codexes with an element of internal & codex to codex balance

If you're going to change 5th you either need a full reboot or a minor change.
Minor changes don't sell rulebooks.
Full reboots need a level of rules competence I've yet to see from GW. They also need competent & thorough playtesting, with an eye to breaking things - again, I've yet to see GW display these traits.
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