Angelwing wrote:Gaunts that were way, way over costed, especially when compared to their ork analogs.

No, they are not over costed, Ork boys are under costed.

Agree with "yellow" about Orks being undercosted. I still think the Gaunts are to weak since No retreat screws them bad.

Warriors that were far to costly and fragile, and were competing slots for carnifi and hive tyrants.

Winged and leaping are a bit expensive, but nothing else. Fragile? If stuck at the front , yes. If unsupported, yes. They only detrimentally compete for slots if the owner is doing a nidzilla themed list. All options should compete against others in a balanced list making you choose, rather than ignore them for being rubbish. I'd also like to add the amount of deathspitter armed warriors that I see in lists on warseer. All those blast markers are nasty!

Not fragile but to pricey. Still have their good share of good setups (+S, scything, deathspitter for one) but unless going for a blanced list I dont see them being chosen over the all mighty Dakkafex or Barbiefex.

Hormagaunts that were too expensive, and fairly useless against power armor or better.

They are simply not used properly. They are costed correctly within a 4th ed framework. They are supposed to tie up enemy shooting squads until the real combat specialists can get there to break the enemy. Hormagaunts have the speed to get there and cut down enemy firepower on turn 1 or 2! Killing stuff with them is a bonus. I agree that this tactic doesn't really work in 5th ed, but thats an edition change problem.

Sine nothing in the synpase department (bar a Winged Tyrant) can support them they get beaten to up badly due to no retreat. The only way to make them hard hitting is with +S, +W, (+I) but then they cost to much for a unit that is suppose to tie up the enemy for a round or two.

Gargoyles that were very good on paper, but far, far too expensive to actually purchase 60+ of the models.

Agreed. I also like to add that the models are tricky to store and time consuming to take out and replace in the case. The models also fall over and break. I have 19 of the old models and rarely use them for these reasons.

Love them. Was lucky enough to get about 14 assembled for the price of 4 and use them in most of my lists (bar Nidzilla).

Raveners that lacked frag gernade options, and were very fragile.

Knackered by edition change, they have no role now.


The lack of flesh hoocks is what kills them. Would youse a 4-5 man unit if the had those.

Carnifi that were abysmal in CC against anything CC based.

Bad against what? Carnifexes need to be equipped properly for combat. Slightly different builds for going against MC's and walkers or infantry. They can get expensive, sure. What was bad about cc carnifexes was the slow speed. We have the run rule now to help.

Agree with yellow on this one. One can tailor carnifexes to their every need and the right setup can even withstand an assault from an Ork mob.

Hive tyrants also being lightweights in the CC division, mainly due to the lack of a viable invuln (same as carnifi).

Tyrants have a high Int. They are supposed to smash the enemy before they get a chance to fight back. With the options available to them, I strongly disagree with them being 'lightweights in cc'

My usual setup is a tooled up Tyrant with three Guards and they seem to strike fear into my opponents hearts. Oh, and the ripp those hearts out and eat them... A winged CC tyrant might be light weight but he should be used as a Dakka Flyrant anyway.

Genestealers being outclassed by their analogs, and costing upwards of 28 pts for a 4+ armor model.

Remember that genestealers are still paying for the old rending rule and the old fleet rule. Outclassed is a bit strong. Saying not quite as good as they were would be better. A stealer with carapace is 20 pts. I assume you are tooling them up with other stuff?

Geneastealer + Feeder Tendrils + Cover = A deacent 17pt close combat unit that can beat most things up sacrificing survivability. They are only outclassed when costing 20+ pt.

Overall, a pretty poor set of options in the codex near the end of 4th. That is not to say that 'Nids could not be competitive, but the margin in which they could was pretty narrow. (MC armies, almost exclusively)

Completely disagree with the first bit. I can't comment on the 'competitive' scene.


In an balanced enviorment the Nids are among the top tire armies if you ask me. In competitive the have gone down half a tire (maby one) for numerous reasons. Like Dual-Lash is the only viable competitve Chaos army or Mech/Council is the only viable competitve Eldar army, Nidzilla is the only competitive Tyranids army.

So, in Rolls 5th ed, and unfortunately this poor codex takes another set of hits.

MC cover saves being heavily, heavily nerfed. (the lack of any real invuln saves for tyranid MCs making this an extremely hard blow)

Not really. I find I have better cover saves than before(with the sole exception of my flyrant. Silly of me to model him in an interesting pose...). If you mean the ability to hide behind size 3 area terrain, then yes, I do agree.

The diffrent tactic needed to gain cover saves have now hamperd the MCs a lot. It was very easy in 4th to advance up most tables in the front lone and being either behind LOS-blockers or in area terrian. Now one has has to stay in the rear of the army which means the MCs are on turn behind. The 50% rule is just to hard to fulfill unless hiding them behind Warriors or Guards.

Hormagaunts/Raveners being unable to go up into ruins at all. Making one of tyranids only "flesh net" units useless on half the game boards.

Yes, a little odd oversight. What is silly is the inability to pop the solution in the official FAQ / errata

A minor inconviniance.

DSing spore mines giving kill points.

Agreed. See above. However, spore mine blast markers now hit more stuff with the partials rule.

Does anybody use these???

Vehicles (tyranid MC analogs) getting a huge survivability boost, and access to cover saves, something MCs had over vehicles previously.

With better cover saves for tyranids to creep up and whack them in combat (with rear armour thrown in and worse defensive weapons)

Have to agree on the OP on this one. The table have turned and whilst the vehicles can still take out our MCs the MCs can only annoy them back. The best tank hunters now I find to be leaping Warriors and Stealers.

Only troops claiming objectives. Very difficult for 'nids in many ways, as their troops have special difficulties claiming due to synapse, and the very low armor save meaning surviving 7 turns is not an easy feat.

Only difficult for nidzilla players. No more difficult for nids than anyone else really. Nids have lots of cheap troops that take high volume of fire to remove. if they are shooting at them, then they won't be shooting your other stuff which is going to smash them to bits. Present them with too much stuff to kill. It's been a staple of nids for all editions.

Two units: WoN Gaunts and Outflanking Stealers. Contest any objectives that are not on either flank or in your own Dzone.

Venom Cannon no longer being able to kill standard vehicles.

As Tim said. Also, it's main role now is tank suppression, stopping them shooting up the rest of your army until it destroys it in combat.

Yes, tank suppressions is the way to go. I still feel a bit left out since its like its unfair that a 1 in 6 would destroy a vehicle.

Move through cover + MC nerf. Making tyranid MCs have an even harder time to stay mobile relative to other armies.

So MC's lost the reroll? Nids still roll 3 dice and pick the highest. It's not much of a drawback. They also get run now in exchange.

3d6 + reroll was rediculus.

The huge incentive for armies to become mechanized, and the tyranid's utter lack of long range vehicle killing power. (Seriously, try and kill a fire prism with a tyranid army, it can kite you all day, and you will be lucky to take it down)

The only solutions are volume of fire / combat attacks or ignore it. Very difficult against fully mechanised forces I agree. At least skimmers are easier to destroy in 5th ed.

I find Fast Mechs to be a huge problem unless I am fielding Nidzilla. Their speed and toughness is just to much. Also I find the 11 Walker Ork Hord to be very difficault.

Rending nerf. Making Genestealers less effective in CC.

Rending wasn't a problem until most other armies got access in some form. But yes, stealers are now less effective for the reasons I gave earlier.

Feeder tendrils maid up for it and then some. Sad though for Warriors and Raveners.


Massacre nerf. See above.

At first I howled my outrage at this change, but after a few games I understood that it was really needed. I stops games being effectively over when a nasty cc unit reaches the enemy lines. I've been on the receiving end of daemon princes and the like getting into my lines with other forces, and it comes down to sheer luck if you can take down the beasts before they fold your entire battle line.

Actually one of my favorit changes in 5th. It was just silly to watch a Flyrant roll up whole armies because of convinient cc-results combined with 12" move and the ablility to consolidate into combat. Agreeing on yellow on this one.

Wound allocation change. Making it so all 8 rending hits can go on the same space marine.

On the other hand, high volume fire might weed out the special weapons and powerfists that nid players fear. I did prefer the 4th ed allocation (quicker and easier) but we work with what we have.

Agree with OP. It is horrible to see a large stealer squad assault, cause 6 rending wound and only 2 guys die from that. Just horrible.

Overall, the poor codex is taking a lot of hits. In a real, competitive environment, CC Nids are really not viable, especially compared to other CC armies.

Again, I can't comment on competitive environments

Nidzilla is still strong but it has a hard time dealing with many of the top tier armies. But I guess its only fair since Nidzilla dominated the early-mid 4th enviorment.


Which means the actual army is not in any way fitting with the fluff.

Nids have always had guns, from way back in rogue trader. They were just better at CC. Besides, CC wasn't the focus, it was a slant. Nids are about waves of poor, cheap troops to win a battle of attrition. The bigger units are specialists to tackle specific targets in a 'shock and awe' way.

When I bought my Nids I wanted a close combat army. I ended up with a shooty one and I find that kind of dissapointing. An all CC Nids is out of the question now.

The current emphasis on objectives really detracts from the Nids fluff as well. As a race who's goal is to eat a planet, I cannot honestly see them squabbling with space marines over an objective.

Well, as Tim said. Also if it denies the enemy an advantage, why wouldn't the nids want to capture stuff? Eating a planet is the backdrop. The game is about you micro managing the tyranid strategy on a battle field level.
How about: ' The prey is gathering it's strength around point A (a flag). We must eradicate this strength to herd the prey forward' ?


No comment. Fluff is in the eye of the beholder and I find trying to argue it meaningless (no rights and wrongs i guess).

Gymbol wrote:Sure, your place or mine? I'm in Marietta, Georgia, USA.

Angelwing wrote:Gaunts that were way, way over costed, especially when compared to their ork analogs.

No, they are not over costed, Ork boys are under costed.

Maybe but then the Ork codex is only about a month old so the Tyranid one would get updated first so if they were to rebalance the problem they would have to make gaunts cheaper

Warriors that were far to costly and fragile, and were competing slots for carnifi and hive tyrants.

Winged and leaping are a bit expensive, but nothing else. Fragile? If stuck at the front , yes. If unsupported, yes. They only detrimentally compete for slots if the owner is doing a nidzilla themed list. All options should compete against others in a balanced list making you choose, rather than ignore them for being rubbish. I'd also like to add the amount of deathspitter armed warriors that I see in lists on warseer. All those blast markers are nasty!

Warriors are ok again could do with a few things being cost balanced again like the Wings and Rending Claws.


Hormagaunts that were too expensive, and fairly useless against power armor or better.

They are simply not used properly. They are costed correctly within a 4th ed framework. They are supposed to tie up enemy shooting squads until the real combat specialists can get there to break the enemy. Hormagaunts have the speed to get there and cut down enemy firepower on turn 1 or 2! Killing stuff with them is a bonus. I agree that this tactic doesn't really work in 5th ed, but thats an edition change problem.

Agreed it is an edition change problem as throwing units away is a poor tactic since it gives your opponent free KP and you need your troop slots to take objectives. Tyranids I expect most would agree use their basic troop choices as living ablative armour to be used up soaking enemy fire until the heavy hitters get in like you suggest. In 5th Edition this just cannot work. Rather than having hordes of little buggers going forward and swarming the enemy they have to sit at the back being hand held up Synapse creatures as I cannot hold objectives while lurking (this I agree with) while everything else gets turned into mushy xeno doritos dip.

Gargoyles that were very good on paper, but far, far too expensive to actually purchase 60+ of the models.

Agreed. I also like to add that the models are tricky to store and time consuming to take out and replace in the case. The models also fall over and break. I have 19 of the old models and rarely use them for these reasons.

Love gargoyles so much I made my own. Again not perfect but until better minitures are available they will do. Also there is something that bothers me about Gargoyles is they fact to do damage they have to get into enemy assault range yet are not really suited to cc. If you could upgrade the fleshborer to a spike rifle or a devourer to give them a bit more range then you could kite people about or what I think would be a better idea is to give them the hit and run rule like ork warbikes have so they can fly in, shoot, assault and then disenguage. Seems more like how I would expect to see them swooping in like a bird of prey, picking off a few before flying out of range. Given the hit and run distance is random makes such a maneuver a risk.

Raveners that lacked frag gernade options, and were very fragile.

Knackered by edition change, they have no role now.


Sadly I agree which is a shame as I love the idea of them bursting out of the ground below the feet of some squad or another and eating them. If I was doing the update I would remove weapon biomorphs from them, give them flesh hooks and the ability to assault after Deep Strike the same as a Lictor can giving them more of a feel of bursting out of the ground rather than popping out a distance away and taking pot shots before charging into combat.

Carnifi that were abysmal in CC against anything CC based.

Bad against what? Carnifexes need to be equipped properly for combat. Slightly different builds for going against MC's and walkers or infantry. They can get expensive, sure. What was bad about cc carnifexes was the slow speed. We have the run rule now to help.

A base Carnifex is not much cop at anything and troops with rending will just eat them alive (hello Deamonettes) but of course you need to specialise it and use it for the job you designed it for. Two sets of Sything Talons + Tusked + Mace Tail + Bioplasma and it would be fairly effective in CC, chuck in an extra wound or extra +1 toughness to help him get there as well.

Hive tyrants also being lightweights in the CC division, mainly due to the lack of a viable invuln (same as carnifi).

Tyrants have a high Int. They are supposed to smash the enemy before they get a chance to fight back. With the options available to them, I strongly disagree with them being 'lightweights in cc'

As said same thing with Carnifex give it a job and let it do that job. My Winged TW Dev * 2 Tyrant is great at mowing down units or killing light vehicles or getting behind them but in CC he is as good as dead.

Genestealers being outclassed by their analogs, and costing upwards of 28 pts for a 4+ armor model.

Remember that genestealers are still paying for the old rending rule and the old fleet rule. Outclassed is a bit strong. Saying not quite as good as they were would be better. A stealer with carapace is 20 pts. I assume you are tooling them up with other stuff?

Outclassed no, but still cost far to much per model since fleet and rending were changed. If they get into cc they are going to murder more or less anything... apart from Ork Boyz due to sheer numbers. A bit fragile now since where before you would have a large screen of gaunts in the way they are back in your table half sitting on an objective for the Hive Mind knows why!

Overall, a pretty poor set of options in the codex near the end of 4th. That is not to say that 'Nids could not be competitive, but the margin in which they could was pretty narrow. (MC armies, almost exclusively)

Completely disagree with the first bit. I can't comment on the 'competitive' scene.


Only competative lists were either 'Nidzilla or Stealer Shock. 'NidZilla is still do able but stealer shock suffered a bit from what I am told changes to fleet and reserves.


So, in Rolls 5th ed, and unfortunately this poor codex takes another set of hits.

MC cover saves being heavily, heavily nerfed. (the lack of any real invuln saves for tyranid MCs making this an extremely hard blow)

Not really. I find I have better cover saves than before(with the sole exception of my flyrant. Silly of me to model him in an interesting pose...). If you mean the ability to hide behind size 3 area terrain, then yes, I do agree.

Goes back to my comment about not having as many troops to hide behind and the fact MC can be picked out because of their size. The rules covering the actual size of the model and actual line of sight are a bit dubious and open to power modeling where you make everything as compact and small as possible to abuse cover. I think buffing regeneration to 4+ and reducing the cost a bit would cover a few issues but give it separate cost of Tyrants with Tyrant Guard or else it would be too powerful.

Hormagaunts/Raveners being unable to go up into ruins at all. Making one of tyranids only "flesh net" units useless on half the game boards.

Yes, a little odd oversight. What is silly is the inability to pop the solution in the official FAQ / errata

The fluff lets them climb walls with flesh hooks and leap over walls but those damn stairs get them every time.

DSing spore mines giving kill points.

Agreed. See above. However, spore mine blast markers now hit more stuff with the partials rule.

However the ammo from artillery should not give KP unless ammo from other artillery pieces gave the same each time it was fired

Vehicles (tyranid MC analogs) getting a huge survivability boost, and access to cover saves, something MCs had over vehicles previously.

With better cover saves for tyranids to creep up and whack them in combat (with rear armour thrown in and worse defensive weapons)

Have to hit them vehicles first, just move 12" every turn and laugh as the Tyrants and Carnis flail about like a Laurel and Hardy sketch.

Only troops claiming objectives. Very difficult for 'nids in many ways, as their troops have special difficulties claiming due to synapse, and the very low armor save meaning surviving 7 turns is not an easy feat.

Only difficult for nidzilla players. No more difficult for nids than anyone else really. Nids have lots of cheap troops that take high volume of fire to remove. if they are shooting at them, then they won't be shooting your other stuff which is going to smash them to bits. Present them with too much stuff to kill. It's been a staple of nids for all editions.

As I covered previously they are needed as walking meat shields but now have to sit about have a picnic.

Venom Cannon no longer being able to kill standard vehicles.

As Tim said. Also, it's main role now is tank suppression, stopping them shooting up the rest of your army until it destroys it in combat.

Fair enough. I was going to redo a unit of warriors to have twin linked Venom Cannons to sit at the back and baby sit my gaunts. Not quite what I had in mind when I started an army of gribbly scythe armed alien killing machines.

Move through cover + MC nerf. Making tyranid MCs have an even harder time to stay mobile relative to other armies.

So MC's lost the reroll? Nids still roll 3 dice and pick the highest. It's not much of a drawback. They also get run now in exchange.

MC movement is fine

The huge incentive for armies to become mechanized, and the tyranid's utter lack of long range vehicle killing power. (Seriously, try and kill a fire prism with a tyranid army, it can kite you all day, and you will be lucky to take it down)

The only solutions are volume of fire / combat attacks or ignore it. Very difficult against fully mechanised forces I agree. At least skimmers are easier to destroy in 5th ed.

Orks in battlewagons... PHILLLLL!!!!!!!!!

Rending nerf. Making Genestealers less effective in CC.

Rending wasn't a problem until most other armies got access in some form. But yes, stealers are now less effective for the reasons I gave earlier.

Massacre nerf. See above.

At first I howled my outrage at this change, but after a few games I understood that it was really needed. I stops games being effectively over when a nasty cc unit reaches the enemy lines. I've been on the receiving end of daemon princes and the like getting into my lines with other forces, and it comes down to sheer luck if you can take down the beasts before they fold your entire battle line.

Went too much the other way now. You get into combat, kill one unit and you stand their holding your hand handle waiting to be shot to pieces.

Wound allocation change. Making it so all 8 rending hits can go on the same space marine.

On the other hand, high volume fire might weed out the special weapons and powerfists that nid players fear. I did prefer the 4th ed allocation (quicker and easier) but we work with what we have.

Tried to fix power gaming by errrr making hit allocation more abuse able by power gamers.

Overall, the poor codex is taking a lot of hits. In a real, competitive environment, CC Nids are really not viable, especially compared to other CC armies.

Again, I can't comment on competitive environments

Which means the actual army is not in any way fitting with the fluff.

Nids have always had guns, from way back in rogue trader. They were just better at CC. Besides, CC wasn't the focus, it was a slant. Nids are about waves of poor, cheap troops to win a battle of attrition. The bigger units are specialists to tackle specific targets in a 'shock and awe' way.

Will stop repeating myself about troops and their picnics

The current emphasis on objectives really detracts from the Nids fluff as well. As a race who's goal is to eat a planet, I cannot honestly see them squabbling with space marines over an objective.

Well, as Tim said. Also if it denies the enemy an advantage, why wouldn't the nids want to capture stuff? Eating a planet is the backdrop. The game is about you micro managing the tyranid strategy on a battle field level.
How about: ' The prey is gathering it's strength around point A (a flag). We must eradicate this strength to herd the prey forward' ?