It has long been pretty apparent that the Tyranid codex has some pretty deep flaws. The huge disparity between the fluff of the tyranids, and the actual mechanics are just one of them.

I'll be the first to say, that I love my tyranid army. It was my first, and continues to be my main, although sometimes to my own minor frustration. However, even before 5th ed rolled around, large chunks of the codex were pretty much non-viable.

We had:

Gaunts that were way, way over costed, especially when compared to their ork analogs.

Warriors that were far to costly and fragile, and were competing slots for carnifi and hive tyrants.

Hormagaunts that were too expensive, and fairly useless against power armor or better.

Gargoyles that were very good on paper, but far, far too expensive to actually purchase 60+ of the models.

Raveners that lacked frag gernade options, and were very fragile.

Carnifi that were abysmal in CC against anything CC based.

Hive tyrants also being lightweights in the CC division, mainly due to the lack of a viable invuln (same as carnifi).

Genestealers being outclassed by their analogs, and costing upwards of 28 pts for a 4+ armor model.

Overall, a pretty poor set of options in the codex near the end of 4th. That is not to say that 'Nids could not be competitive, but the margin in which they could was pretty narrow. (MC armies, almost exclusively)

So, in Rolls 5th ed, and unfortunately this poor codex takes another set of hits.

We have:

MC cover saves being heavily, heavily nerfed. (the lack of any real invuln saves for tyranid MCs making this an extremely hard blow)

Hormagaunts/Raveners being unable to go up into ruins at all. Making one of tyranids only "flesh net" units useless on half the game boards.

DSing spore mines giving kill points.

Vehicles (tyranid MC analogs) getting a huge survivability boost, and access to cover saves, something MCs had over vehicles previously.

Only troops claiming objectives. Very difficult for 'nids in many ways, as their troops have special difficulties claiming due to synapse, and the very low armor save meaning surviving 7 turns is not an easy feat.

Venom Cannon no longer being able to kill standard vehicles.

Move through cover + MC nerf. Making tyranid MCs have an even harder time to stay mobile relative to other armies.

The huge incentive for armies to become mechanized, and the tyranid's utter lack of long range vehicle killing power. (Seriously, try and kill a fire prism with a tyranid army, it can kite you all day, and you will be lucky to take it down)

Rending nerf. Making Genestealers less effective in CC.

Massacre nerf. See above.

Wound allocation change. Making it so all 8 rending hits can go on the same space marine.

Overall, the poor codex is taking a lot of hits. In a real, competitive environment, CC Nids are really not viable, especially compared to other CC armies. Which means the actual army is not in any way fitting with the fluff. The current emphasis on objectives really detracts from the Nids fluff as well. As a race who's goal is to eat a planet, I cannot honestly see them squabbling with space marines over an objective.

This realization really crystalized when I was helping a potential player choose his starting army, and he asked about Tyranids. After explaining to him that they really are not viable in CC, that 'yes, they eat planets, but for some reason they will fight over a space marine flag', and that about 50-60% of the units in the codex are completely non-viable, I really realized just how shattered this codex has become.

While I know that it will not get a new codex for at least another 3 years or so, and I really don't have the faith in GW to make the new one any good, I must admit that this current codex is quickly shooting to the top of my "worst codex" list.

~Murphey

unfortunately, there are quite a few problems with the older codex books. things that dont work so well in 5th, units that arent worth taking, problems in certain areas. here are some examples:

IG:
- Officers worth extra KP
- Chimeras 'overcosted'
- some units and doctrines are "no brainers" while others are rarely seen due to costs
(thankfully they are getting a new codex soon)

Necrons
- Flayed Ones, Pariahs (and to a lesser extent, Wraiths)
- Res Orbs are seen as 'mandatory'

WH/DH:
- 'overpriced' wargear
- Inq. worth extra KP, and Assassins etc worth KP per model
- (see IG)
- outdated Wargear and weapon rules

Eldar had all sorts of problems until they got their '5th ed ready' codex (half the list was rarely seen, very little Wargear etc)

Nids arent exactly singled out, but i do agree that they need an update.

Murphey wrote:MC cover saves being heavily, heavily nerfed. (the lack of any real invuln saves for tyranid MCs making this an extremely hard blow)

dont forget that they can now get Cover from other models (a Tyrant with Guard will get cover when they do, a Carni can get cover from Warriors etc)

Murphey wrote:Vehicles (tyranid MC analogs) getting a huge survivability boost, and access to cover saves, something MCs had over vehicles previously.

dont forget that you only need to contact the front of the vehicle in CC now in order to hit the softer rear armour (i used to have to run my Gants past the tank in order to charge the rear). also, things like Heavy Bolters have been made main weapons now.

Murphey wrote:Venom Cannon no longer being able to kill standard vehicles.

yes it can!
(just needs to stack Immobilised/Weapon Destroyed results)

Murphey wrote:Wound allocation change. Making it so all 8 rending hits can go on the same space marine.

although this can boost the survivability of Warriors.

Murphey wrote:As a race who's goal is to eat a planet, I cannot honestly see them squabbling with space marines over an objective.

what if that objective represented a spore chimney or brood nest? keeping the Marines away stops them planting charges. what if it represented the entrance to an underground bunker from which the planet's defence grid was being controlled?

im sure we can think of things.

Murphey wrote:While I know that it will not get a new codex for at least another 3 years or so, and I really don't have the faith in GW to make the new one any good, I must admit that this current codex is quickly shooting to the top of my "worst codex" list.

anyway, hope that helped (even if just a little)

cheers

~ Tim

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:- Inq. worth extra KP, and Assassins etc worth KP per model

Damn well should be Those pesky blighters are cheese on a stick made of cheese.
I agree with murph on the nids.. I'd only taken up nids at the end of 4th and so my loyalty was easily put to one side.. they just went to the attic to wait..whilst my loyalty based armies struggled on. (BTW everyone knows that there are at least two 'leaked' playtest codexs out there for new nids right?.. most people cry BS due to them skipping options and being messy copys of the current one- most likely homemade efforts by some kiddy)

The bit that gets my goat are the end 4th ed ones that won't be redone soon and still are 5th ed hit.. Most things to do with DA as LH found out last week when he tried something other than deathwing..Tzeentch.. powerfistless int1,isolatable shooty ICs, low model count tarpit (4++) chance of protecting the special guy was removed and then torrenting was made more prominent / easier. Then because for a brief while at the end of 4th LOS and cover rules made them good..they were hit by stacked Faq-itus.. Which when 5th ed came round left a uncompetitive pile of poo optimised for the 40k mirrorworld where folks with multi wounds aren't all eternal.. where the whole board isn't a cover save and the meta game is still las plas.. not massed fire/horde.They've had to be attic'd apart from for obscenely friendly games.
Of course most folks respond that there are benefits (just like preffered enemy for stealers) and my bile is raised at a lack of a sub list (which some folks would say isn't the intent of it).... but consarn it them thar sockdolagers said they were they new way of doing codexs and then dun Dumfungled 180'd on us and made orks.
(mops rabid drool from chin) So errmm now we agree what do we do about it.. are you going to write a hombrew?

Best thing about the Tyranid rules atm is the Lictor. Here we have a creature made to infiltrate and appear from cover to ambush the enemy and eat their brains who has a 1 in 6 chance when emerging from cover to wound himself...

Lictor always deep strikes into cover and of course rules as written say he has to take a opps I teleported into a building test even tho he is not teleporting he has been there all along hiding.

Warp Blast again it with a nerf that might of not been seen. You have to roll to hit with targeted psychic attacks and what does a Zondraphope (sp?) have as BS? 3. So if you use the template then its going to end up all over the shop and if you used the focused one then half the time its going to miss and then you are going to have to take a psychic test anyway.

It just seems to me that when the 40k rules are written not just 5th Edition but previous ones as well the playtests do SM vs SM and maybe if they can find a IG or Eldar player hanging about do a few of those games as well before polishing it all up with repeated copy + paste art work and sending it on its way. I cannot see people play testing nids in 5th edition and not going "hang on a minute here, infiltrating troops that half kill themselves? Psychic Artillary that is cross eyed? Might have to faq some of this guys". *

* yes I am a cynic

Bah just need to vent as having £400 worth of Nids sitting around while I go back to playing Fantasy is going to do my wick in.

PaddyF wrote:Best thing about the Tyranid rules atm is the Lictor. Here we have a creature made to infiltrate and appear from cover to ambush the enemy and eat their brains who has a 1 in 6 chance when emerging from cover to wound himself...

we discussed this one the other day: it could be seen as the chance of the lictor being wounded whilst operating behind enemy lines.

PaddyF wrote:Warp Blast again it with a nerf that might of not been seen. You have to roll to hit with targeted psychic attacks and what does a Zondraphope (sp?) have as BS? 3. So if you use the template then its going to end up all over the shop and if you used the focused one then half the time its going to miss and then you are going to have to take a psychic test anyway.

i thought Warp Blast always had to roll to hit?

~ Tim

Gaunts that were way, way over costed, especially when compared to their ork analogs.

No, they are not over costed, Ork boys are under costed.

Warriors that were far to costly and fragile, and were competing slots for carnifi and hive tyrants.

Winged and leaping are a bit expensive, but nothing else. Fragile? If stuck at the front , yes. If unsupported, yes. They only detrimentally compete for slots if the owner is doing a nidzilla themed list. All options should compete against others in a balanced list making you choose, rather than ignore them for being rubbish. I'd also like to add the amount of deathspitter armed warriors that I see in lists on warseer. All those blast markers are nasty!

Hormagaunts that were too expensive, and fairly useless against power armor or better.

They are simply not used properly. They are costed correctly within a 4th ed framework. They are supposed to tie up enemy shooting squads until the real combat specialists can get there to break the enemy. Hormagaunts have the speed to get there and cut down enemy firepower on turn 1 or 2! Killing stuff with them is a bonus. I agree that this tactic doesn't really work in 5th ed, but thats an edition change problem.

Gargoyles that were very good on paper, but far, far too expensive to actually purchase 60+ of the models.

Agreed. I also like to add that the models are tricky to store and time consuming to take out and replace in the case. The models also fall over and break. I have 19 of the old models and rarely use them for these reasons.

Raveners that lacked frag gernade options, and were very fragile.

Knackered by edition change, they have no role now.

Carnifi that were abysmal in CC against anything CC based.

Bad against what? Carnifexes need to be equipped properly for combat. Slightly different builds for going against MC's and walkers or infantry. They can get expensive, sure. What was bad about cc carnifexes was the slow speed. We have the run rule now to help.

Hive tyrants also being lightweights in the CC division, mainly due to the lack of a viable invuln (same as carnifi).

Tyrants have a high Int. They are supposed to smash the enemy before they get a chance to fight back. With the options available to them, I strongly disagree with them being 'lightweights in cc'

Genestealers being outclassed by their analogs, and costing upwards of 28 pts for a 4+ armor model.

Remember that genestealers are still paying for the old rending rule and the old fleet rule. Outclassed is a bit strong. Saying not quite as good as they were would be better. A stealer with carapace is 20 pts. I assume you are tooling them up with other stuff?

Overall, a pretty poor set of options in the codex near the end of 4th. That is not to say that 'Nids could not be competitive, but the margin in which they could was pretty narrow. (MC armies, almost exclusively)

Completely disagree with the first bit. I can't comment on the 'competitive' scene.

So, in Rolls 5th ed, and unfortunately this poor codex takes another set of hits.

MC cover saves being heavily, heavily nerfed. (the lack of any real invuln saves for tyranid MCs making this an extremely hard blow)

Not really. I find I have better cover saves than before(with the sole exception of my flyrant. Silly of me to model him in an interesting pose...). If you mean the ability to hide behind size 3 area terrain, then yes, I do agree.

Hormagaunts/Raveners being unable to go up into ruins at all. Making one of tyranids only "flesh net" units useless on half the game boards.

Yes, a little odd oversight. What is silly is the inability to pop the solution in the official FAQ / errata

DSing spore mines giving kill points.

Agreed. See above. However, spore mine blast markers now hit more stuff with the partials rule.

Vehicles (tyranid MC analogs) getting a huge survivability boost, and access to cover saves, something MCs had over vehicles previously.

With better cover saves for tyranids to creep up and whack them in combat (with rear armour thrown in and worse defensive weapons)

Only troops claiming objectives. Very difficult for 'nids in many ways, as their troops have special difficulties claiming due to synapse, and the very low armor save meaning surviving 7 turns is not an easy feat.

Only difficult for nidzilla players. No more difficult for nids than anyone else really. Nids have lots of cheap troops that take high volume of fire to remove. if they are shooting at them, then they won't be shooting your other stuff which is going to smash them to bits. Present them with too much stuff to kill. It's been a staple of nids for all editions.

Venom Cannon no longer being able to kill standard vehicles.

As Tim said. Also, it's main role now is tank suppression, stopping them shooting up the rest of your army until it destroys it in combat.

Move through cover + MC nerf. Making tyranid MCs have an even harder time to stay mobile relative to other armies.

So MC's lost the reroll? Nids still roll 3 dice and pick the highest. It's not much of a drawback. They also get run now in exchange.

The huge incentive for armies to become mechanized, and the tyranid's utter lack of long range vehicle killing power. (Seriously, try and kill a fire prism with a tyranid army, it can kite you all day, and you will be lucky to take it down)

The only solutions are volume of fire / combat attacks or ignore it. Very difficult against fully mechanised forces I agree. At least skimmers are easier to destroy in 5th ed.

Rending nerf. Making Genestealers less effective in CC.

Rending wasn't a problem until most other armies got access in some form. But yes, stealers are now less effective for the reasons I gave earlier.

Massacre nerf. See above.

At first I howled my outrage at this change, but after a few games I understood that it was really needed. I stops games being effectively over when a nasty cc unit reaches the enemy lines. I've been on the receiving end of daemon princes and the like getting into my lines with other forces, and it comes down to sheer luck if you can take down the beasts before they fold your entire battle line.

Wound allocation change. Making it so all 8 rending hits can go on the same space marine.

On the other hand, high volume fire might weed out the special weapons and powerfists that nid players fear. I did prefer the 4th ed allocation (quicker and easier) but we work with what we have.

Overall, the poor codex is taking a lot of hits. In a real, competitive environment, CC Nids are really not viable, especially compared to other CC armies.

Again, I can't comment on competitive environments

Which means the actual army is not in any way fitting with the fluff.

Nids have always had guns, from way back in rogue trader. They were just better at CC. Besides, CC wasn't the focus, it was a slant. Nids are about waves of poor, cheap troops to win a battle of attrition. The bigger units are specialists to tackle specific targets in a 'shock and awe' way.

The current emphasis on objectives really detracts from the Nids fluff as well. As a race who's goal is to eat a planet, I cannot honestly see them squabbling with space marines over an objective.

Well, as Tim said. Also if it denies the enemy an advantage, why wouldn't the nids want to capture stuff? Eating a planet is the backdrop. The game is about you micro managing the tyranid strategy on a battle field level.
How about: ' The prey is gathering it's strength around point A (a flag). We must eradicate this strength to herd the prey forward' ?

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:

PaddyF wrote:Warp Blast again it with a nerf that might of not been seen. You have to roll to hit with targeted psychic attacks and what does a Zondraphope (sp?) have as BS? 3. So if you use the template then its going to end up all over the shop and if you used the focused one then half the time its going to miss and then you are going to have to take a psychic test anyway.

i thought Warp Blast always had to roll to hit?

~ Tim

It did. In 5th ed, the normal power uses a blast marker, so would roll for scatter. The focused power still rolls to hit as it's a focused bolt.
@PaddyF you have to take the psychic test for focused blast before you roll to hit. Missing makes no difference. It hasn't been 'nerfed' in the slightest. In fact, standard blast is better with the partial hits and the fact that a scatter could hit something even if you 'miss'.

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:

PaddyF wrote:Best thing about the Tyranid rules atm is the Lictor. Here we have a creature made to infiltrate and appear from cover to ambush the enemy and eat their brains who has a 1 in 6 chance when emerging from cover to wound himself...

we discussed this one the other day: it could be seen as the chance of the lictor being wounded whilst operating behind enemy lines.
~ Tim

There is a way for a Lictor to enter the game and not take a Dangerous Terrain test, you simply have him pop up in Impassable Terrain instead.

Also, just to check does all Area Terrain have to be Difficult?

Antubis wrote: There is a way for a Lictor to enter the game and not take a Dangerous Terrain test, you simply have him pop up in Impassable Terrain instead.

That's an interesting idea! It's a tactic I hadn't thought of before. The dex says that the lictor can be placed there and would move as normal. And there is no such thing as an impassable terrain test. Hmmmm.

Antubis wrote:Also, just to check does all Area Terrain have to be Difficult?

Nah, it can agree with you! Seriously, there is nothing that says area terrain has to be difficult at all. A gentle hill is classified as clear terrain and can be area terrain. Just needs to have a clear boundary to define the area of the terrain.

TW

timewizard wrote:Seriously, there is nothing that says area terrain has to be difficult at all.

agreed.

timewizard wrote:A gentle hill is classified as clear terrain and can be area terrain.

it could, but that would just be weird.

~ Tim

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:it could, but that would just be weird.

~ Tim

Not for Lictors, they must always deep strike into a piece of area terrain!
They could sit on a gentle hill and still get a 5+ cover save with no worries about dangerous terrain tests.

still weird. you weirdy weirdo.

(sorry, hills as Area Terrain was one of my pet peeves in 4th ed - now it just makes me chuckle mockingly )

~ Tim

So, if tyranids are so weedy, why do they consistently hand my dead models back to me when I can usually beat SM & Tau & pretty much every other army BUT nids?

Could be 8 Monstrous Creatures, or maybe more templates per turn than a school full of first graders can use in a day..

Or it could just be that I suck at playing vs tyranids. (grins)

Gymbol wrote:
Or it could just be that I suck at playing vs tyranids. (grins)

Fancy a game?

Sure, your place or mine? I'm in Marietta, Georgia, USA.