Ok, i know that these discussion are very dangerous, since they tend to be driven by zeal and fanaticism. (i hope i'm not suffering any of these right now )



But i really don't see where the strength lays of IG.
When calculating and thinking about stuff, i always compare to SM, since they tend to be an unofficial standard to me because of there huge popularity.

And when i do, i really wonder what IG is in fact worth?


If you calc some killing capacities of both armies base troopers, it is clear that the SM wins easily, even when taking into account their costs.
So outright strength isn't it.
The IG have lots of guns, but they'll barely hurt and their own defense is silly.

The outnumbering won't work out either, since you'll lose close combat any way.


Then people tend to say that the power of IG are the heavy weapons.
But you can get heavy weapons for SM too, they are even cheaper and don't need a second guy to help handle it.

Then there are tanks, but SM has 13 front armour hard shooting thingies.
Of course, that isn't as good as those Leman Russ tanks are, indeed.
But it isn't like the SM have to drive a 2pk with an air-pressure gun either.



Now, i don't want to start some useless call about boosting IG or nerfing SM.
But it must be that i don't see things, and i kindly invite you all to point me out where i'm missing things.

I really need some peptalk.

one of the great things about IG is that because of their low individual cost, you can afford to take lots of weapons for different roles.

they are also very customisable, and have lots of space in their FOC.

for example, you can include lots of different Heavy Weapons (as part of your HQ) without having to use up Heavy Support squads, allowing you to also take lots of tanks (while other armies would have to choose between heavy armour and heavy weapon squads).

this also means that you can cram lots of scoring units in, giving your opponent much more that he needs to kill to secure victory. multiple small/cheap squads often lead to overkill, too (where as Marines with their fewer more expensive squads allow you to concentrate firepower with less waste).

and while the IG infantryman is easy to kill, you get 5 of them for every 2 Marines. put them in cover (which Marines dont benefit much from) and they are suddenly much harder to kill, without any extra cost. on top of that, there are options like Cameleoline, Carapace Armour, Slave Levies, Stormtroopers/Grenadiers that can make them more survivable (especially to small-arms fire), if thats what you are looking for.

Shorack wrote:Then people tend to say that the power of IG are the heavy weapons.
But you can get heavy weapons for SM too, they are even cheaper and don't need a second guy to help handle it.

you do realise that you dont need the 2nd crewman to fire the weapon, right? having 2 crew for each weapon is a huge bonus, as it means you have to effectively kill each weapon twice. compare to Marines: once their Heavy Weapon trooper is killed (range/LOS, ToF etc), they lose the weapon.

hope that helps

~ Tim

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:you get 5 of them for every 2 Marines.

More meat for the meat grinder, some guard lists do terrify me, dropping vets, cheap basilisks behind av14 ap3 ordinance.twin plas stormtroopers chimeras of shooty doom that can force a torrent.Roughriders behind av14 for termie killing.
Thats before you start throwing in some witchunters (naked cannoness for ROB alike)and their cheap meq-u-like with assasins etc..
I only play against GEQ and eldar (as my group basically have decided meq can't can't beat some things) and all my chaos forces feel the pinch, my win record this year has been appaling. I have on occasion played one fella who figured it wasn't worth rolling for his lasguns only the heavy weapons, that is a tad foolish.Weak fellows can be saved by weak guns.

Your guard you don't get peptalks, you get told to "tighten that lip soldier!, back to the front!"

Lately, I have a hard time loosing with guard. opponents just cant come up with a way to kill all the glorious men! really. You have MANY dangerous units. Marine armies have far fewer units, which means they can only engage very few targets, leading to overkill exactly as Malek pointed out. so while he takes them out one by one, you concentrate fire and take him out. you can have some nice infiltration - giving your cheap troops a save for free. If chosen well, you can have a lot of BS 4 so you hit your shots.
what hasnt been mentioned yet: with a good setup and some practice, guard NEVER breaks officer Ld + standard = no turning back, you die standing
Also recently, I came to love the conscripts. Thats one awesome problem solver. If you cant deal with something, just swamp it and let it rot in cc till the end of the game, alto most of the time the conscripts will win
Oh, NEVER play any tanks besides chimeras, maybe a basilisk if youre lucky with your hit dice. the rest is completely useless, you will be better off with some specialised unit like Inquisitor (preferably with Tarot), maybe some sisters or more hardened veterans or an Assassin.
Guard is IMO one of the harder armies to play, but once learned, it definitely can hold its own against the best of them!

Ranhothep wrote:what hasnt been mentioned yet: with a good setup and some practice, guard NEVER breaks officer Ld + standard = no turning back, you die standing
Also recently, I came to love the conscripts. Thats one awesome problem solver. If you cant deal with something, just swamp it and let it rot in cc till the end of the game, alto most of the time the conscripts will win
Oh, NEVER play any tanks besides chimeras, maybe a basilisk if youre lucky with your hit dice. the rest is completely useless, you will be better off with some specialised unit like Inquisitor (preferably with Tarot), maybe some sisters or more hardened veterans or an Assassin.
Guard is IMO one of the harder armies to play, but once learned, it definitely can hold its own against the best of them!

Okay. Guard units never breaking? Leadership 9 with modifiers and a re roll. Unlikely to break maybe, but not 'never'
conscripts winning assaults most of the time? What are your regular opponents? Do you lead them with the independent commissar with power fist?
tanks other than chimeras completely useless? What tactics/army composition do you use to make leman russ and hellhounds useless in your force?

Last point agreed!

I nearly spilt my drink when I read your post. Im interested in your regular list and tactics, thats for sure!

Angelwing wrote:Okay. Guard units never breaking? Leadership 9 with modifiers and a re roll. Unlikely to break maybe, but not 'never'

heh. i dont use a Standard (too many Plasma Guns in my Command HQ lol) but i dont have much of a problem with units breaking. Ld9 (ignoring modifiers for below 50% for Iron Discipline) means that when called upon to take a test i rarely fail it... and besides, dead men dont take Morale checks.

even if a unit does run they tend to rally next turn (which they can do even below half strength) or get wiped out as they flee anyway.

~ Tim
p.s. oh and as to Tanks - i love my Bassie/Demo/Russ combo.

Obviously, conscripts winning most of the time was a bit of a joke I thought the smiley might be an indication... Though it is far from impossible. If 20-30 guys charge in, the amount of dice can sometimes just overwhelm even superior foes.

Tho I stand by my statement of tanks being useless. It might have something to do with my lousy scatter rolls but even so. take a leman. what is it good against? infantry will spread out, so on a good shot you will be killing 3-4 models max. against many armies this is rarely impressive. if the opponent has units that are really endangered by the tank, he will go for it and it isnt that difficult to glance. and glance is all he needs to neutralise 150 of your army since at best you wont be shooting next turn. against vehicles, most of the time you require a hit in order to not halve your strength. statistically thats 2 hits per game (6 turns standard) even with a hit on the scatter its just one shot. against really nasty targets like wraithlords, demon princes, tyranid MCs its performance is rapidly decreasing. again, you require mostly a hit on the scatter dice, and many of those targets have either a save (2+ tyranids, 5+ chaos ward) ot you have only a 50/50 chance of wounding a wraithlord. For 150 points, thats not enough in my book. Certainly, from time to time, it can have its moments, when you hit a recently disembarked squad and such, but generally its inconsistent and just not good enough for its points.

the demolisher is a bit better off, but the range is shorter and it costs more points, while still retaining several of the above mentioned disadvantages.
against armies with fast mobile elements ( skimmers, bikes) the tanks are often just sitting ducks, its not that difficult to get into its side armour.
The thing is, that if you dont play any tanks, the opponents anti-tank weapons have nothing to shoot. if you have one tank, you give him something to aim for. And a single AV 14 isnt that hard to glance if you look at the current armies. its very often only a 4+ roll (venom cannon, railgun, bright/dark lance)
Unless you play a whole armoured company, a balanced enemy army with some solid fire support will take out 1-2 tanks. There might be some armies, where AV14 can be an issue, but those certainly arent the ones you are afraid of and I like to build my army to have a chance against the toughest of foes (tyranids, eldar) which happen to be unimpressed by lemans and such

Well, i'm quite happy for the lively reactions.

But i'd like to pose questions on the answers.
Tim (i hope it is ok to call you Tim?), it is true that they are customisable, but all your options quite frankly do the same: they stand and shoot.

Bringing things into close combat is suicidal. (except maybe for the ogryns or 1-time rough riders?)
I've tried to see the point of, for example, charging forward with a chimera containing stormtroopers, but tbh, i don't see it. :s

You can bring storm troopers quite close to the enemy with melta or plasma and give one blast, but then they'll come down on you in close combat and kill you. So i doubt if there are many situations where it pays-off (especially when you incorporate chimera cost), except for the vehicle hunting maybe.

(but still i like to do something like that, just because i want some mobility)



You are quite right on the lots of HW (heavy weapons).
But my fear is that for example the hw squads you can pick with the HQ slot are far too attractive to shoot at for the enemy. (2 kills is a disabled weapon).
so i always stick in planning to infantry squads, making points/heavy weapon higher. (but ofc, it also makes the heavy weapon crew last longer)

but probably it is just me being too cautious.


But overall, feedback certainly did help



Killmaimburn then, you catched my interest about adding in sisters of battle etc.
My problem is, i know nothing about how other armies can be mingled in with IG. (i don't even know if you can add catachan units to a standard IG army )
Could someone give more info on that subject or link?



Ranhothep, i do agree that IG can have many units, but dangerous is a bit harder. Against SM, only 1 turn out of 3 a heavy bolter will kill one. (so the bolter itself can win back its cost) But for a lasgun, that is 1 turn out of 18. (so 18 points of guardsmen will kill 15 points SM in a game, if you suppose you can shoot every turn)
I do like the idea of conscripts though.
But never running is maybe a bit overpositive, if you take quite some hits, you may fail even though you can re-roll.




But to get to my burning question: how to add mobility in a useful way to IG? I've picked IG to collect, because they were the only ones in the whole 40k universe that were really appalling to me in background and models.

But the problem for me is that you actually deploy the best you can and then just go on throwing dices in shooting phases and when tide is turning: morale checks.

It really makes for a boring playstyle to me, but i don't see how to get some effective mobility into it, instead of mobility just because it is mobile.

Shorack wrote:Tim (i hope it is ok to call you Tim?),

yeah, of course mate.

Shorack wrote:it is true that they are customisable, but all your options quite frankly do the same: they stand and shoot.

almost, but not entirely. so far ive mainly played shooty Guard, but ive started to explore some of the other options on paper.

it is possible to go for CC, although i would expect elite troops (tooled Command Squads, Ogryn etc) to fare badly, due to the high cost/low model count. instead, i would expect to get the most from Roughriders (Hunting Lances) and Conscripts (maybe play around with some of the Abhuman Doctrines, making them Beastmen, for example).

i would plan for either:
- a one-off killer strike (massed Roughrider charge, 10-20 models, wiping out one or two expensive enemy units, leaving a gap in the opposing force and scoring a lot of VPs)
- a tar-pit (Conscripts tying up an expensive enemy unit, stopping it from rolling up your lines)
- mopping up after shooting (small Roughrider squads that hang back until the enemy have been softened up, before charging forward to pick off survivors)

of course i wouldnt expect to win a whole game with CC alone (thats not what Guard are for, anyway).

its also possible to play a mobile shooty army. Grenade Launchers, Storm Bolters, Sentinels, Chimeras, Slave Levies all allow you to move and shoot rather than stand still the whole game. you can back this up with bigger Vehicles and even Drop Troops, allowing you to concentrate firepower where its needed, and even slower units with Rapid Fire weapons will get there in the end if you resist the urge to keep them stationary.

Guard work best as a combined arms force, IMO. their highly customisable nature allows each player to tweak things to suit their own playing style, but however you split it, a mix works best, i think: some mobility, some CC, some longrange shooting.

my Guard emphasise long range firepower the most, but still have a little counter attack (Command Squad) and some mobility (tanks and Armoured Fist). a more even split would probably do them good, making them more balanced, but they do what they were designed to do.

on the drawing board i have a much more mobile list (Hellhounds, Chimera, Grenade Launchers/Storm Bolters, Sentinels - massed infantry marching forward supported by tanks, bolstered by the INQ) and a more CC heavy CP list (Warrior Weapon Beastmen & Command Squad, backed by Slave Levies).

thats another point too - allies. there are plenty of options available to the IG to fill specialised roles (Assassins, Arcos, GKTs etc).

Shorack wrote:You are quite right on the lots of HW (heavy weapons).
But my fear is that for example the hw squads you can pick with the HQ slot are far too attractive to shoot at for the enemy. (2 kills is a disabled weapon).

err no, in a Heavy Weapon Squad (say, Anti Tank, w/3 Lascannons), it takes 4 kills to disable a Heavy Weapon (you can lose 3 crew and still fire all 3 weapons, barring things like ToF or Range/LOS sniping).

put them in Cover, keep them within the HQ's Ld bubble, spread them out, hold them back (keeping most enemies out of range, or forcing Target Priority tests), and try to make other units more tempting (for example, i find a few Infantry Squads w/COD kept all bunched up will draw Blast Weapon fire away from the more spread out Heavies). it might even be worth sacrificing another unit, leaving it in the open, in order to buy your Heavies another turn.

when it comes to Tank/MC hunting, theres a little trick i learnt, too (which doesnt just apply to IG, but is useful for them). set up the squad behind Sz 2 Area Terrain (preferably Difficult Terrain with a good Cover Save), with the Heavy Weapons in B2B with the Terrain. this makes them totally immune to Size 1-2 models' shooting (barring non-LOS weapons of course). in return however, they can shoot Sz 3 targets (which is what you bought them to do), and while Size 3 models can shoot back at them, you do get your Cover Saves. combine this with the other ideas above (force Target Priority in the case of MCs, keep out of small arms range etc). the Terrain will also slow down the enemy (unless its Open Ground, but that tends to be rare for Area Terrain) if they try to take you out in CC.

Shorack wrote:But overall, feedback certainly did help

Shorack wrote:My problem is, i know nothing about how other armies can be mingled in with IG. (i don't even know if you can add catachan units to a standard IG army )
Could someone give more info on that subject or link?

unfortunately, the rules are a bit spread out. to my knowledge, when it comes to allies there are:
- Deathwatch Killteams
- Kroot Mercs
- WH (INQ and/or SoB)
- DH (INQ and/or GK)

Catchan Deathworld units cannot be added to normal IG AFAIK, they are used as an army in their own right. you can of course use the Junglefighters Doctrine and apply it to only some units.

Shorack wrote:Ranhothep, i do agree that IG can have many units, but dangerous is a bit harder. Against SM, only 1 turn out of 3 a heavy bolter will kill one. (so the bolter itself can win back its cost) But for a lasgun, that is 1 turn out of 18. (so 18 points of guardsmen will kill 15 points SM in a game, if you suppose you can shoot every turn)

personally, i dont rely on Lasguns or Heavy Bolters to kill Marines (although it is totally possible, especially if you build your army with that in mind) - i use Plasma Pistols/Guns/Cannons, Missile Launchers, Lascannons and Ordnance.

if you do want to use higher ROF weapons, lets look again at the numbers:
2 x Heavy Bolter Support Squads = 160 pts
every turn, thats:
18 HB shots = 9 hits = 6 wounds = 2 kills
6 Lasgun shots = 3 hits = 1 wound = 1/3 kill

over 6 turns (assuming uninterupted fire), thats 14 dead Marines. i.e. 210 pts worth of kills for 160 pts of troops.

your opponent has to split fire between your 2 squads, you get 2 Scoring Units, you can benefit from Cover (easily doubling your survivability for free) while Marines cant (against your HBs/Lasguns), and you didnt even use up a Heavy slot. to top it off, you get to deploy during the HQ stage (after opponents Heavies and Troops), despite the fact that your units act like HS.

you can also consider adding Sharpshooters, if youve taken it.

personally though, like i said, i prefer high S/low AP weapons, which tend to have a slower ROF and higher cost (what can i say, i like killing Marines outright on a 2+ to wound ).

Shorack wrote:It really makes for a boring playstyle to me, but i don't see how to get some effective mobility into it, instead of mobility just because it is mobile.

how about Slave Levies with Plasma Guns and Heavy Weapons?
how about Sentinels?
Command Squads w/4 Grenade Launchers (and Storm Bolter, and Sharpshooters)?
how about Melta/Plasma gun Drop Troops?
Infiltrating Storm Troopers/Vets?
Flamer/Plasma/Melta squads in Chimeras?
Hellhounds?
Roughriders?

hope that helps

~ Tim
p.s. apologies for any typos (other mods feel free to correct any) - i dont have time to preview this right now - Kate needs a hand with Seth.

That certainly did have some strong points.

Still a few questions though. (but the numbers are going down. )


Seems like full close combat aim really revolves around rough riders (which isn't surprising after all ), but how would that fair against more horde-like armies? (due to the one-use-only-lance)

And what is that about abhuman doctrines? Something from white dwarf (which i haven't read in years ) And is it official or do you need acceptance of opponents?
(and what does it do ofc )



About the shootie army then, doesn't that cause the problem of heavy weapons? Since those don't mix up with movement. Won't you get outshooted or really experience the lack of it?

Also, with the movement, the lasgun is limited to 12 inch, so once you can shoot, you'll get charged.

and what are slave levies? (i sure missed out quite some stuff it seems :s)



Good point on the heavy weapons squads, i just keep forgetting it it seems. (maybe because of the bases)

The part about how to keep them safe certainly was a good read too.

how about Slave Levies with Plasma Guns and Heavy Weapons?
how about Sentinels?
Command Squads w/4 Grenade Launchers (and Storm Bolter, and Sharpshooters)?
how about Melta/Plasma gun Drop Troops?
Infiltrating Storm Troopers/Vets?
Flamer/Plasma/Melta squads in Chimeras?
Hellhounds?
Roughriders?

Well i don't know again about the leavies.

The mobile command squad certainly is an option.

I have more problems with plasma and especially melta drop troops, it seems to me like a 1 shot suicide mission. So the target really has to be worth it and you have scenario's that won't allow the deepstrike to work, which would mean you're very close range melta would have to abuse his legs to get in range and pray that they stay attached for long enough.

Infiltrating storm troops/vets: that would mean giving them a gren launcher again, but yes, that would work i suppose, or you could indeed use melta, but wouldn't that be a single strike again? (or am i looking too negative at 1 turn glorious shooting before being torn apart?)

The chimera squads, might be quite a valid idea with plasma vets i guess (6 shots, 4 hits, 3-4 wounds, should work to get the enemy running away instead of running towards you)

Hellhounds, don't really know what to think, looks like a gun that can hurt like hell. But probably again a valid point.

Roughriders, well, good against armoured stuff, don't know agaisnt swarms (but asked that higher up in my post)


must admit that last piece of your post with all those options really works inspiring.
Maybe i should try to slap that all in a 1500p list and see what space remains before launching a new barrage of questions.


Thanks a lot


ps: seems like i got quite some question in the end


*edit* my apologies for always using too many smileys

Shorack wrote:Seems like full close combat aim really revolves around rough riders (which isn't surprising after all ), but how would that fair against more horde-like armies? (due to the one-use-only-lance)

against hordes, Ogryn would probably fare better (is tough elite troops they really struggle against, in my experience), although you would still want to support them.

RRs would score good kills in the first round, but in order to tip the balance against hordes they will need support too.

Conscripts, CC Vets - heck even COD Infantry Platoons should do fine against hordes.

add in Sentinels (count as 5 models in CC to help with outnumbering, and cant be hurt by some units at all) and some Blast/Template/high RoF weapons to thin the enemy before the fighting starts.

youve also got things like Die Hards and Iron Discipline that can help in CC (as well as Hardened Fighters, which some people swear by). plus, if you are planning on surviving in CC, a 4+ Save (Carapace Armour/Storm Troopers) can help.

Shorack wrote:And what is that about abhuman doctrines? Something from white dwarf (which i haven't read in years ) And is it official or do you need acceptance of opponents?
(and what does it do ofc )

Abhuman Doctrines were in WD (dont have the issue number to hand, but you should be able to look it up on the GW site). you spend 1 Doc Pt on Abhumans, which allows you to buy the actual Doctrines themselves (at a further 1 Doc Pt each as normal). some are applied to Conscripts (which will cost you a further Doc Pt).

for example, Slave Levies gives your Infantry Squads Feel No Pain + Slow & Purposeful for a small cost (e.g. move and fire a Plasma Gun at full range, with an extra 4+ chance to ignore gets hot!). the downside is that it stops the unit taking any other Doctrines (although this can be turned into a benefit, if you are using expensive Special Equipment Docs and dont want to buy them for everyone).

they are an official add-on to the Doctrines in the codex (allowing you to mix and match).

Shorack wrote:About the shootie army then, doesn't that cause the problem of heavy weapons? Since those don't mix up with movement. Won't you get outshooted or really experience the lack of it?

well you can take Tanks/Sentinels (oh and Slave Levies) with Heavy Weapons (move and fire), and you can still add Heavy Weapon squads to support your men from behind as they advance. otherwise yes, you will be limited when it comes to range (24").

Shorack wrote:Also, with the movement, the lasgun is limited to 12 inch, so once you can shoot, you'll get charged.

only if the enemy survive.
concentrate your fire and use the Lasguns in tandem with more mobile (and powerful) weapons, to ensure that you dont leave enemies alive within 12". with the lasgun units generally being slower (unless they have Chimeras of course) your more mobile squads will have already gotten in a few turns of shooting before the Lasguns get used anyway, so it should just be a case of mopping up.

Shorack wrote:Good point on the heavy weapons squads, i just keep forgetting it it seems. (maybe because of the bases)

those bsb's (big silly bases) were a big mistake on GWs part - they caused so much confusion.
i would recommend basing the models separately instead.

Shorack wrote:The mobile command squad certainly is an option.

im itching to try these out when i build my PDF force. 4 Grenade Launchers, Storm Bolter, Sharpshooters (& COD). move and fire 24", allowing you to get into range in the first turn but still keep the enemy at arms reach. ability to tackle hordes, tougher troops, light vehicles, 6 shots a turn, all for less than 90 pts. plus you get a Ld bubble from the officer.

Shorack wrote:I have more problems with plasma and especially melta drop troops, it seems to me like a 1 shot suicide mission. So the target really has to be worth it and you have scenario's that won't allow the deepstrike to work, which would mean you're very close range melta would have to abuse his legs to get in range and pray that they stay attached for long enough.

well Drooptroops is free (pts wise), so you could always take Light Infantry (Infiltrate) as a backup plan, for short ranged units.

if you manage to isolate part of the enemy force (e.g. advance/support units, or a flank) and swamp them with DS'ers/Infiltrators, you should be able to hit hard without taking much damage in return. all the while longrange units offer support from affar.

combining Mortars & Bassies with Drop Troops & Infiltrators would be quite interesting...

Shorack wrote:Infiltrating storm troops/vets: that would mean giving them a gren launcher again, but yes, that would work i suppose, or you could indeed use melta, but wouldn't that be a single strike again? (or am i looking too negative at 1 turn glorious shooting before being torn apart?)

the thing with IG is that you can often outnumber the enemy in terms of units as well as models. yes if you are in range to shoot the enemy then they can shoot you back, but if you bring 2 units for every one they have, you arent going to get wiped out straight away: 2 squads shoot the enemy, the enemy shoot 1 back = you still have 1 squad left to finish the job next turn.

Shorack wrote:The chimera squads, might be quite a valid idea with plasma vets i guess (6 shots, 4 hits, 3-4 wounds, should work to get the enemy running away instead of running towards you)

dont forget Plasma Pistols, plus the basic weapons in the squad, and the Chimera's guns itself. and try to use the transport to shield the squad from the rest of the enemy army.

Shorack wrote:must admit that last piece of your post with all those options really works inspiring.
Maybe i should try to slap that all in a 1500p list and see what space remains before launching a new barrage of questions.


Thanks a lot

glad to help

~ Tim
p.s.

Shorack wrote:*edit* my apologies for always using too many smileys

hehe. dont worry, i like using too many smilies too.

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:- a one-off killer strike (massed Roughrider charge, 10-20 models, wiping out one or two expensive enemy units, leaving a gap in the opposing force and scoring a lot of VPs)

A charge by cover of day light across a minefield? I really would be quite happy for an opponent to take more than 8 roughriders in 1 squad, they become much harder to hide and much harder to steer towards juicy targets, they become visibly more of a threat and earn less as a proportion to what the lower amount do, still love them a a unit (I used to take them in my LATD).
I'm wondering where Ljundhammer is at, he's taking a CC gaurd list to the GT next week and its pretty funky. Good luck to him

Shooty mobility can be handled by tanks (and ponderous but sneaky storm troopers)
The WH and DH codex allow a lot of freedom (with constraints ) if your looking for super mobility taking one of those lists where you can have a tornado and stormtroopers can sometimes be worth looking into.Unfortunately I'm still appalling bad at understanding the difference between inducted allied and just straight old in the list for them so I'm not the ninja for that topic.

Ranhothep: defending tanks

survivability: agreed, one russ on its own is a sitting duck, but if you take two, a hellhound, a couple of chimeras and some sentinals as well, the enemy is forced to prioritize. I also take advantage of the battlecannons range. not much else can match it, leaving you safe for a turn or two.

targets: agreed, shooting MC's and A14 tanks is a waste. I target tanks with armour of 12 or below, full transports are a priority. Squads which need reducing below half strength, or softening before assaulting with ogryns or rough riders. Also, simply overlooking objectives discourages the enemy considerably. Use the long range to take on heavy weapon squads who lurk at the back out of range of the rest of your army.

Sponsons increase your options. heavy bolters are more useful at taking on the horde than the battle cannon. hull lascannons if you really need to take on tough tanks (when those anti tank squads miss!)
demolishers (my personal choice) are even better. Hull lascannon and plasma cannon sponsons for taking on MC's and the like.

Cover: use the tanks to hide your rough riders, indirect fire guns and command squad. Roll the tanks forward screening special weapon squads with demo charges or flamers. With the tanks at the front, you can force target priority tests that could have the enemy wasting firepower that can't hurt you. Remember a leadership test is required to target anything other than the closest large target.

Just a few ideas. Certainly not ' useless'

*commissar removes bolt pistol from my head*

Angelwing wrote:Ranhothep: defending tanks

survivability: agreed, one russ on its own is a sitting duck, but if you take two, a hellhound, a couple of chimeras and some sentinals as well, the enemy is forced to prioritize. I also take advantage of the battlecannons range. not much else can match it, leaving you safe for a turn or two.

I FULLY agree mate BUT here were allready talking about mech guard, not regular footsloggers From my experience, up to 1500-1600 points its not possible to mix these two types effectively. You should go either or.
I agree on the sponsons as well, especially the heavy bolter ones. I dont like the laser, as its quite expensive, BS 3 and usually makes the side heavy bolters useless.

Further pointers for Shorack:

allies: you should best try to get a peak into the WH and DH codices. An alliance is often fluffy, cool and effective

close combat: You aint gonna beat any army in CC. Tho you most certainly can beat several enemy units. you can have some respectable counter attack units. rough riders, command squads (senior officers with power fists and medics, just dont bring the medic into base to base) commissars -> hidden power fists, or even better hardened veterans with a honorifica imperialis -> best hidden power fist. If you can spare a few points and a doctrine, gie them +1WS and then your fists will hit on 3+ quite often, which can scare even marines. be sure to use your numbers well here to "shield" your fists in close combat

rapid fire and getting charged: best option: KILL what could charge you Otherwise, again use your numbers. simply spread your squad in a way to have a few models outside of the killing zone and inside of a Ld bubble. This will prolong the combat. Or just use some cheap squads as "bite" to lure an enemy into your killing ground after they kill the unfortunate guys and make a sweeping advance...into their graves. I use a few regular squads with only a plasma gun - they are cheap, scoring, no heavy weapons allows them to move constantly. the plasma gun can hurt allmost everything (from terminators, through carnifexes to falcons) and as has been pointed out, most armies wont simply have enough units to take care of them immediately, so they can get their 70 points back easily. Oh, and use a remnants squad with a plasma to an even better effect

Heavy weapons squads: they are deployed late! you pick a part of the battlefield for them to cover, shield with terrain or put them inside terrain for a cover save and use their range. especially suited for this are lascannons, autocannons and missile launchers. apart from lascannons you could theoretically make them jungle fighters, making them "invisible" with some suited terrain. Be carefull to leave a spot for them during your deployment.

Deep strike: sometimes it is a suicide mission, but were talking 70-80 points only again. sometimes, you use them for quarter claiming. if you go for stationary tanks, like predators, exorcists and similar stuff, with a bit of luck, you should shake them at least with meltas, which can be enough, if the tank cant get supported. Or you just deep strike them into your lines to bolster a part where the enemy is putting pressure.

Hardened Veterans: invaluable BS4 AND infiltration. you can get an excellent side shot at enemy armour. or you can deepstrike them too with even more weapons than storm troopers. or you just infiltrate them into your lines for better line of fire. 3 plasmas and a laser at BS4 at a reasonable price. its also a great counterattack if someone reaches your lines. rapid fire from that squad is nasty (I use two such squads )

Survivability: even tho it seems that guardsmen die to a bad stare allready, it is....true BUT you got bucketloads of them and most of the time your opponent needs to concentrate fire to kill a whole squad. statistically, even a dedicated anti infantry unit like a 4 heavy bolter devastator squad wont kill 10 guardsmen in one turn WITHOUT cover. which leaves you with your special and heavy weapon, which is all you need and in turn, forces your opponent to waste a lot of firepower to finish them off. You will have your "decoy" disposable squads, which dont do much dmg on their own, but slowly nibble at your opponent and help finish off targets. They are your scoring units, they force priority checks and serve as charge lures or slow downs. Then you will have your hitters, which do dmg but have to be covered and defended. these units can be both, stationary and mobile.

Mobility: If you want eldar-style mobility to redeploy your whole army, forget it or try mechanized (tho youd better wait till the Chimera transport becomes points effective) But you certainly can have a mixed force with some elements moving into forward positions and advancing at the enemy, while some fire support stays back and lets fly. Just keep in mind, that many targets will spare you the travel, as they will try to close with you asap and also there will be some which NO one, especially not Joe guardsmen would wanna come close to

Ranhothep wrote:
I FULLY agree mate BUT here were allready talking about mech guard, not regular footsloggers

*chuckles* i play foot sloggers and can cram all that in with 50 troopers too.
I prefer a hybrid force, but as I'm painting some conscripts at the moment, I may give an all infantry list a go.