Hey all - i finally got round to using the 5th ed Building rules tonight, and i wanted to talk about them.

Kate and I each played a CP game against a friend (Tau vs CSM, Secure & Control/Pitched Battle, and then Eldar vs CSM, Secure & Control/Spearhead), on our 4' x 4' board. roughly in the centre we set up the octagonal building that i made from my CoD City Box (dont worry, i havent forgotten my thread... )

this is the building:



we ruled that it had:
- AV10 all round
- 1 Access Point
- Capacity 10
- No Fire Points, but however many models that could fit on the roof could fire from it (using the Battlements & Parapets rule)

i was very pleased with how these rules worked. the building didnt dominate the game, or give any one player an unfair advantage, but at the same time it opened up more tactical possibilities - it was quite cool too.

i just wish i had tried these rules sooner.

so, have you tried using Buildings yet? if so, how did it go?

cheers

~ Tim

I have not. To be honest I really haven't played much 5th edition. If it were breached were you going to replace it with a ruin?

2 access points allow for some interesting movement options when you enter and exit on the next turn.

Only once.
It's not a concept my clubmates seem to be able to get their heads around. They're used to only playing buildings as impassable or as ruins. This quasi-vehicle thing throws them for a loop.

Given a 'more mature' group (my clubmates are mostly <19), though, it may be possible to play them this 'new' way (new to some players, not so to some of us old buggers, though.).

I've used bunkers a few times (picked up one of the Rackham bunkers), but they seem to dominate the game. I also picked up an accessory set of theirs which had some storage trailer type things. We tried those once and set the AV low. Since it didn't have any firing points though, there wasn't much reason for infantry to go inside and they really only served to be sight blocking terrain.

I have picked up some old Epicast Ork buildings, though, to do an Ork village. With a lower AV they should be fun to use, especially if someone wants to ram them

We have an awesome bunker or two (made by Mr6 based on the 4th ed rulebook template).. but we tried them a few times.. players who want to exploit it get annoyed by the limited firing per side (your unit can still only target one unit and with fire hatches that go in opposite direction only 1 or 2 blokes will ever be able to fire) And people against it complain (thats me normally) about someone being able to assume they'll have a 4th AV14 on the table.(in combat patrol you don't have to contend with full mechanised stuff so much so it doesn't smack you round the face quite so bad )
Parapits basically make the thing open topped right?
MMm not sure about that yet.
like the flamer rules (were they always like that?)
We might try bringing it out in 5th but not as av14, we rarely play multi layered buildings/ruins anyway.
As doctor tom says they seem (to me) to be either good (dominate game) or not good (ignored by everyone).
For exploitation..when I first was playing MR6 he built an aircraft hanger with no infantry access points, no way of destroying it.. that his eldar flew out of..shot and then flew back into...kind of soiled my visions of what is meant to be on a table in 40k.(and made me a pain in the ass about rules)

cheers for all the replies guys!

Ben wrote:If it were breached were you going to replace it with a ruin?

i dont have any actual ruins ready yet (so far i have only made intact structures), but i did have a crater on hand to replace it with.

in the end, it got Shaken once, but that was it. as it was in the middle of the board, no-one got to it until half-way through the game. it was also quite a way from the Objectives, so wasnt a high priority targe once occupied.

the CSM player put his Icon squad in there, which meant the Daemons could be summonend within 6" of the walls, which was quite neat.

Gymbol wrote:2 access points allow for some interesting movement options when you enter and exit on the next turn.

well the building itself only has one door, but i will bear that in mind when making bigger intact structures.

i already have my Amera Bastion, but i think i will have to keep that for special scenarios, since it will be too hard to kill in CP.

chromedog wrote:Only once.
It's not a concept my clubmates seem to be able to get their heads around. They're used to only playing buildings as impassable or as ruins. This quasi-vehicle thing throws them for a loop.

if they are already using Vehicles, i wouldnt have thought it would have been much of a problem (we picked them up instantly, and we dont even use many Vehicles in CP). its basically just an Immobile Transport that can be used by either side (that downgrades certain damage results).

DoctorTom wrote:I've used bunkers a few times (picked up one of the Rackham bunkers), but they seem to dominate the game.

did you put them in one DZ? having ours in the middle of the board helped (even in Spearhead no-one could deploy in it).

DoctorTom wrote:I also picked up an accessory set of theirs which had some storage trailer type things. We tried those once and set the AV low. Since it didn't have any firing points though, there wasn't much reason for infantry to go inside and they really only served to be sight blocking terrain.

i suppose you could put Objective Markers on them - that way, the best way to capture the Objective is by being inside them. if your unit cannot Embark (say, because they are bikers) they will have to destroy them to get to the goods inside (at which point they can claim the Objectve from the crater).

DoctorTom wrote:I have picked up some old Epicast Ork buildings, though, to do an Ork village. With a lower AV they should be fun to use, especially if someone wants to ram them

i fancied doing a scenario where one side starts with the bulk of their army asleep in their tents (would work with huts too of course) and everyone piles out once the attack is made on their camp.
(maybe giant spiders attacking Ash Nomads... in the dark )

killmaimburn wrote:We have an awesome bunker or two ... players who want to exploit it get annoyed by the limited firing per side (your unit can still only target one unit and with fire hatches that go in opposite direction only 1 or 2 blokes will ever be able to fire)

does it not have a roof hatch/parapet?

killmaimburn wrote:And people against it complain (thats me normally) about someone being able to assume they'll have a 4th AV14 on the table.

again, i think where you put it matters here. if you arent playing a bunker assault mission, then it probably shouldnt be in one player's DZ.

killmaimburn wrote:Parapits basically make the thing open topped right?
MMm not sure about that yet.

yes, pretty much.

killmaimburn wrote:like the flamer rules (were they always like that?)

i think they were, actually (never used bunkers under 4th, and cant remember how it worked in 3rd).

killmaimburn wrote:For exploitation..when I first was playing MR6 he built an aircraft hanger...

p78, "What sort of game?".

-------------------------------------
right, i have a few rules questions:

1. do Parapets count as a Fire Point with regards to being hit by a Template Weapon? (if so, is that only if they are being used?)
2. can you attack an unoccupied Building in any way?
3. what happens if a unit DS's onto an unoccupied Building? do they arrive inside it (assuming they could legally Embark)? (what normally stops a unit from DS'ing into a Transport is that the Vehicle is another model, and they count as Impassable Terrain)
4. can models Deploy inside Buildings (inc. Infiltrators)?

thoughts?

cheers

~ Tim

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:

killmaimburn wrote:And people against it complain (thats me normally) about someone being able to assume they'll have a 4th AV14 on the table.

again, i think where you put it matters here. if you arent playing a bunker assault mission, then it probably shouldnt be in one player's DZ.

4. can models Deploy inside Buildings (inc. Infiltrators)?

Ahh good knew you'd get there in the end.
After folks infiltrated into them.. I started asking about alarm systems (like in killteam).. when you break into a building you kind of set off all the auspexs for 24" hearing range..
that was pretty much when I got a smack for trying to rebalance the game by using too much complexity.. So we play it simple now

EDIT
1. I'd say yes.. because its like a kind of open topped and should have the same style of penatlties (someone pouring napalm down through the roof of your hut is gonna give you a suntan)
2. I'd say yes.. but in big points. why waste it.. it should be agreed before hand if people can assualt it (I can't hurt it but I'm assualting it to get to the middle of the board by turn 2 etc)
3. i'd have no problem, but if you exceeded capacity, or were half in half out.. you'd go on the disruption table.

In ed 4 and 5 my preffered method (if only for simplicity) of using bunkers/hard points would be to treat them as difficult terrain (but impassable to vehicles) and give models (which given LMTRKs example would only be positioned on top) a 3+ cover save as opposed to the 4+ normally gained. This also stops fire arc + number of models able to shoot out at a given angel etc - simply follow the 2" Rule ( a model further than 2" into the building 'gifts' its opponent a 4+ cover save).

However I would be quite prepared to use 'destroyable buildings' especially in smaller games.

LMTRK - what did you do if the building was destroyed? Make it dangerous terrain?

WolflordHavoc wrote:LMTRK - what did you do if the building was destroyed? Make it dangerous terrain?

we were just following the rules on p79 of the 5th ed Rulebook - you use the normal Vehicle Damage table (with some exceptions), so if it was Wrecked it would be Difficult & Dangerous, and if it Explodes it would be replaced by a Crater.

in the end though, we had more pressing concerns, like the Objectives, or the other units on the table, so neither Kate or I directed a great deal of firepower at the building anyway.

if anyone hasnt tried these rules, but has some suitable terrain, i suggest you give them a go.

cheers!

~ Tim

With my clubmates, it's due more to them really only starting in late 3rd ed. They've only ever played with ruins or bunkers. None of them have actually read the full building rules in the 5th ed book.

They may learn - then again, they might just give up and go play 6th ed (my timeframe for how long it will take them to learn).

You know how it is with teens. Constantly (and easily) distracted.

whilst looking something up for another thread, i spotted this (p75 5th ed Rulebook, Infiltrate USR):

Infiltrators may be set up anywhere on the table that is more than 12" from any enemy unit, as long as no deployed enemy unit can draw a line of sight to them. This includes inside a building (see page 83), as long as the building is more than 12" from any enemy unit.

so Infiltrating straight into a building is legit.

(thats good to know since my Ratlings did it last week )

oh and as to the question about the building getting Destroyed:
in my last game (where the Ratlings Infiltrated into it) the building was destroyed outright by a Dire Avenger Bladestorm (from just 3 models!).
S4 vs AV10, rolled a 6 to Penetrate, then a 6 on the Damage Table, -2 for Glancing +1 since the Ratlings used the parapets last turn = 5 = Wrecked.
the Ratlings had to bail out, and became Pinned (Ld6 LOL).

we didnt have a suitable ruin, so we left the intact building on the table, and said that models could move over and through it like normal Difficult (Dangerous) Terrain, and that it would confer a 4+ Cover Save where appropriate.

cheers

~ Tim