Me (renegade ig) and Caspar (tau) are halfway through a game.

Al Rehem just outflanked with 2x inf squads, 2x special weaponers, himself and a chimera... plus 40 zombies (conscripts).

It will be his turn next.
He has 2 outflanking units left to arrive, both largish (estimated 14+) units of kroot.

The Al Rehem table edge is entirely blocked with zombies and guardsmen, except for a space where 7 pathfinders were.

I have an officer of the fleet.

If he rolls to come on from the opposite side, he will squish my flank (I'm already about 5 2 kp's down), if he rolls the same side as al rehem, we have the "can't move on to the table" crisis (one unit might squeeze in, but not both).

I have the opportunity to force a re-roll for which edge they arrive from.

What do you think?

Either re-roll the table side or they are forced back into reserve as they cant deploy.

Looks like two ways to deal with this situation.

Friendly Play - let your opponent either deploy on the other flank or place them back in reserve.

Competitve Play - he is forced to deploy them in the space available, those that cannot be placed are lost in the same way as 'emergency disembarking from a wreaked vehicle.

I personally would go with the friendly way, as a fellow Al'rahem IG player, this tactic of covering the flank with bodies is great for ruining an opponents day. Caused real pain on Chris's Outflanking White Scar Marines.

In our 40,000pts apocalypse game - went one step further, I parked 8 Chimeras and 3 Basilisiks across a 6 foot table edge stopping his turn 2 reserves from all appearing. Chris and James did manage to blow a hole in this wall with Shrike, Veteran Vanguard Squad, Assault Marines and a Chaplain all jump packing over the top and then assaulting the vehicles.

So unless it is for a tournament - I'd let your opponent deploy on the other flank. It's just a game...

ruffian4 wrote: I have the opportunity to force a re-roll for which edge they arrive from.

What do you think?

Let's see. Let a unit of his army get destroyed trying to outflank me or let him re-roll and come on from the other side saving his force?

No brainer, let them die!

In friendly games, if my opponent failed to move a unit or fire at something I have no problem reminding him. It's been done for me as well.

But if following the rules means that a unit gets destroyed, it's part of the learning curve, and I don't think it's the least bit unfair

timewizard wrote:
But if following the rules means that a unit gets destroyed, it's part of the learning curve, and I don't think it's the least bit unfair

Emboldening mine.
A bit harsh though for a 50 / 50 dice roll you have no control over. If you had used a unit unwisely and it gets destroyed, fair enough. Having a unit (or more in this case) being removed on a whim of an ill thought out rule is detrimental to the game as a whole.

I can see your point, but working within the rules is part of the game.

I play a Librarian and his with GoI and roll double 6 on scatter and I scatter into difficult terrain. Not only do I lose 1 model to the warp, I have to roll a dang terr test for each surviving member. I may not like it, but that's how the rules work and I have to live with it.

Personally I sometimes feel I have no control over anything I roll for. I have been known to drop a demolisher pieplate on 8 models and go on to roll 7 1s!

I have also managed to fail armor saves on 2 of 5 terminators by rolling a 3, and a pair each of 2s and 1s. I'm sure everyone here has had their share of suffering from the wrath of the bad dice gods from time to time. The first time my land raider hit the table, it got taken out before firing a shot or moving an inch. My fault for poor deployment and poor decision using my force. Live and learn. That's pretty much my point.

I don't want to sound harsh, but after getting my butt handed to me (by myself in the librarian story above) I now take a second look at my options weighing whether I want to take the chance on bad rolls or not.

I agree with all your examples are being fair, and it's up to the player to take a risk. However, the outflank 'oh no I can't because of a line of troops' rule is badly worded / thought out. Being destroyed at the whim of The Lady is okay. Being destroyed because of naff proof reading / play testing isn't.

Thanks for the replies guys.

@Ogregut. That's all well and good, but it has no basis in the rules (see discussion of this matter for 101 different opinions).

@DaBoss. Well, we play competitive games, but in a friendly atmosphere.

Angelwing wrote:A bit harsh though for a 50 / 50 dice roll you have no control over.

timewizard wrote:I can see your point, but working within the rules is part of the game.

Normally we play by quite strict RAW, but when the RAW is an ass, it gets ignored.
In this case, it is harsh and seems even more so, in that if they do turn up next turn, my officer of the fleet can force a re-roll on them.

This to me, seems like potentially sending the light brigade back down the wrong valley, intentionally and due to a disputed technicality.

I am most definately having pangs of potential future guilt about this one.

Angelwing wrote:I agree with all your examples are being fair, and it's up to the player to take a risk. However, the outflank 'oh no I can't because of a line of troops' rule is badly worded / thought out. Being destroyed at the whim of The Lady is okay. Being destroyed because of naff proof reading / play testing isn't.

I'm not aware of any very particular elements to the outflank..vs coming on from reserve..but everyone and their monkey seems to have been in the room in the russian dudes with the white scars that couldn't come on due to 40+ kroot.(seriously I've met 8 people who said they were there)
I played alpha legion (yes for the infiltrate)for a while.. and the learning curve of cutting it to pieces on deployment (W shapes, other infiltrates etc) really stole its thunder.. I had to leave fabius deployed just to make sure I always had the area behind him that I could deploy to and not just be insta tabled from anyone with half a brain who'd seen it before..
With the white scars situation..his bikes were troops.. in 100% of games I play I'd know if my opponent took 30+ kroot and knowing the weakness of my army I would always be able to deploy a unit.. that would deterr such deployment (even in dawn of war I could stick 1 troop squad 18" from a board edge, giving me 36"s of my board edge to come in from.(safely for at least 2 turns)
Alrahem only makes his infantry platoon outflank.. there should be other things that can choose to outflank, even in the most fluffy army, that can guarentee your entry.
If not your deserving the whupping, because you have taken a trick pony* you don't have the smarts to anticipate adjust against different opponents.If there was something you could do and you took those precautions.... then its lady luck.Q.E.D.
*Anything involving total reserves should expect practiced counter tactics due to the viciousness of eldar and certain tau (and stealer+chosen) reserve designed cheese.

Re the specific, you paid for the officer, for the ability to do that..he must have seen that.You won the race for whose reserves came on first.. in fact had they been MORE spread out.. he'd have enjoyed the kroot sneaking up behind the people who were sneaking up on others.. Hes winning..Wouldn't 7 pathfinders in max coherancy provide space for 1+ unit to move on its about 18"s.If you'd assualted them you'd have squished up into assualt leaving a gap elsewhere? And he still may roll the side he wishes.

That said, GAP when someone did that to spack didn't he just fly all his vendettas over them

killmaimburn wrote:but everyone and their monkey seems to have been in the room in the russian dudes with the white scars that couldn't come on due to 40+ kroot.(seriously I've met 8 people who said they were there)

Oh indeed. I've never seen an entire board edge blocked off before myself.

Spike, buffy the vampire slayer wrote:If all the vampires who said they were at the crucifixion were actually there, it would have looked like Woodstock.

My personal solution would be that the if the outflanking units roll for a side which is completely blocked off they get put back into reserve. This rewards the player who was clever / devious / lucky enough to block off the board without souring the game.

It would seem that the officer of the fleet rule just means the IG player can force a re-roll if they want. So you have a 1/3 chance of arriving on the blocked short edge, and if you don't and are forced to re-roll, you still only have a 1/3 chance of coming in on the blocked side.

Interesting solution Angelwing. I guess that would be feasable, but I still think the rules should be followed. If I am facing an army that has reserve units that will outflank, I have to be aware of it and try to protect my flanks as best as I can. If that means denying one flank as an entry point, then that's something my opponent will have to deal with. Maybe they have to move a unit up to open the flank or trust to luck.

That's the way I would play it. But I can see your side of the issue as well.

@Ruffian-How did you play it out?

Your opponent took a calculated risk by stating that he would place his unit in reserve and outflank them when you were doing the same thing with such a large force. I would point that out to him and then I would let him come on the other side.

If I had forseen the risk myself, I would have pointed that out to him at the start. If he then went ahead, then that is just tough

If it was the GT tourney, they're dead.

Angelwing wrote: I've never seen an entire board edge blocked off before myself.

It would have happened here, if the pathfinders were not there (6 flamers and 6 rapid lasguns and they still survived!!!).

killmaimburn wrote:Re the specific, you paid for the officer, for the ability to do that..he must have seen that.You won the race for whose reserves came on first.. in fact had they been MORE spread out.. he'd have enjoyed the kroot sneaking up behind the people who were sneaking up on others..

Well, the pathfinders outflanked (due to a cock up) before al rehem, but they were placed quite close together, to shoot up my missile launchers.

Angelwing wrote:My personal solution would be that the if the outflanking units roll for a side which is completely blocked off they get put back into reserve. This rewards the player who was clever / devious / lucky enough to block off the board without souring the game.

That's ok, but, what if I choose to stick to my guns and stay put, on turn 5, they will automatically arrive, is this the acid test of it???
This ^ is made worse, by my ability to enforce a re-roll.
Potentially, I can force this rules car crash to happen...

timewizard wrote:If I am facing an army that has reserve units that will outflank, I have to be aware of it and try to protect my flanks as best as I can. If that means denying one flank as an entry point, then that's something my opponent will have to deal with. Maybe they have to move a unit up to open the flank or trust to luck.

Exactly.
On the other flank, I am aware that the outflanking kroot could mess me up entirely.
I have been trying to "retire" from it, but have been unable to do so, due to some indestructable piranha's threatening my basilisk.

timewizard wrote:
@Ruffian-How did you play it out?

We are playing at TWAT hq, time (wizard) constraints interrupted, so the table is in "limbo" (at exactly this point), which only exascerbates the situation.

KInG wrote:If I had forseen the risk myself, I would have pointed that out to him at the start. If he then went ahead, then that is just tough

If it was the GT tourney, they're dead.

Well, we are both aware of the potential, but have yet to thrash out a solution.
A kind of "ignore it till it happens" atmosphere has developed.

I find it annoying, as (return to my mantra) when the wolves dex appeared, with wolf scouts (how many years ago???), my first thought was big line of idiots will ruin that.

So, the situation is still in limbo (I will show Caspar this thread)...