I agree with what you have both said and agree that 6th ed @ 1500 doesnt really work, in 5th we were upto 1750 and my default for 6th was immediatly set @ 1850. Thats now starting to creep up towards 2250, but for me 1850 is the min.

Also i think things like netlists and online advice is a bit more redundant in this ed, there is too many variables to consider now, where before it was what can xyz codex bring to the table and how do i combat it, its now what does xyz codex bring to the table how does there allies of xyz effect that and what effect does xyz fortifaction have.

I am building lists similar to your requirements above:

a) anti-flyer
b) anti-horde
c) anti-MEq
d) anti-vehicle
e) anti-MC

and also add a trick or 2 such as
alpha strike
suicide squads
wound allocation
DS disruption
etc etc

I also try to get half of my army to be good at range and the other half assault, this allows me to use my strenght against the enemies weakness without going just one route, what happens when a gunline comes up against a army that shoots better than it? This is the hardest considaration to achieve.

That said i can see lists i could build and play in the DA codex, just not at 1500.

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Please note there is an important distinction between what James and I say.
I say sublists have been punished by GW (a sublist x50 is still too limited) thats it, I do not believe there is any greater reason to play larger games now than last year or the year before.Previously you had to pick a strength of an army and play to it, this is still the case. Playing higher brackets is an addiction, where its hard to get back to a state of having to pick 1 strength wihtout unbalancing yourself(we've all had that moment of dilema with an RPG do I go for dex or str not knowing which one will help the other side of the door).
The only difference now is guard have a really epic tier codex AND can still scale really well from combat patrol up to apocalypse, people coming off having everything and are feeling very exposed/vulnerable.

If anything, 6th ed pushes you down a size because even the best of us, play it a bit slower than 5th ed. But I'm willing to do what my opponents want.

Whilst "netlists" and more importantly net-tactics are still woefully flailiing with epic fail.. this doesn't diminish the fact you should still put effort in pre game, in fact more, as you have to balance more ingredients carefully and there is less established caselaw to shortcut, there are still people out there who my 1500 would beat their 1750 just on waste, even with decent codexs.

BANE wrote:I also try to get half of my army to be good at range and the other half assault, this allows me to use my strenght against the enemies weakness without going just one route, what happens when a gunline comes up against a army that shoots better than it?

That is to some extent true. However, there is a very delicate balance, and is the reason why I think that Blood Hammer doesn't work in this edition. You end up doing one thing 'quite well', the other thing 'quite well', and end up being 'good' at neither.

What I'm seeing mostly is that units that can perform two roles are better than armies with 2 specialist units to perform those roles. The best example that I can give are bikes (or KMB's love bots as I like to think of them) - in the CSM codex they are good at combat, they are fast, and they can kill MEq at range with plasma guns (and follow up assault), and they're very hard to kill. I think Chaos is the best place for them (other codex bikes aren't so hot at the CC element), but RavenWing may perform well (but the troops version not as well, I think). Another are CSM havocs with autocannons - anti-flyer, horde & mech (due to volume of shots) - anti-vehicle (AV10/11 due to strength, AV12+ due to volume of fire) - and they're tough enough that you'll need to dedicate a lot of fire to get rid of them.

Of course the cheaper, the better!

It may be that I'm being skewed by 1500, but that's where I'm at at the moment.

I think you both have different list building techniques tho, from what i have gathered from you both is that james is similar in my approach in that he trys to build an all comers list thinking tournie scene trying to get a list that can function against all the codex's and thinking of the most popular builds. Toby on the other hand i believe is like Nige in that you think of the enemy you are likely to face from that player and build the list to face specific threats.

As for picking a strength of a codex

BANE wrote:
I also try to get half of my army to be good at range and the other half assault, this allows me to use my strenght against the enemies weakness without going just one route, what happens when a gunline comes up against a army that shoots better than it?

So i struggle at lower points because you need higher points to balance the bias of the codex. Example in the BA codex its naturally assault bias however this leaves you at a disadvantage on claiming and defending home objectives so you need to throw points into units that can help here whilst not hamstringing the natural playstyle of your army.

As for 6th = slower = lower points games i counter that with 6th = more deadly = bigger point games, i do agree with you point on it been slower tho, atleast for now.

@ james, i think you are seeing those dual role units as key as thats what we need to look at at lower points games. They are still nice to have in bigger games tho, however the impact isnt as great as the 5 man dedicatated assault unit that the dual unit dealt with @1500 suddenly becomes a 10 man problem @1850.

BANE wrote:Toby [..] you think of the enemy you are likely to face from that player and build the list to face specific threats.

In the form of the specific/tailoring, I most certainly do not . I believe I should have enough to take out anything anyone should field..thats as specific as it gets (e.g. 50 melta guns)
I've built my last 4 years worth of lists basically with MEQ in mind, whilst playing 97% of the time against GEQ or TEQ.(a foible of mine).
The khorne bikes killing his terminators aren't all wielding in power fists, in 2 squads the sargents are naked..but the volume of attacks will take down anything.

BANE wrote: what happens when a gunline comes up against a army that shoots better than it?

You mean when you picked a strength that was not strong enough, Pretty much the first rule I was taught was don't try to outshoot guard yeah you balance but its the nature of the game, the codex design pushs you to a certain play style, you generally don't try to take stand still and shoot chaos.. you tend not to take assault tau.
I don't see why being outgunned by guard is relevant to which points bracket 6th ed sits best with.

BANE wrote:So I struggle at lower points because you need higher points to balance the bias of the codex.

And just as you need to, so does the other guy..yes it slightly lessons the chances of 10,000 lascannons vs 80,000 lascannons, someone might have some ogryns for a laugh .

BANE wrote: = more deadly = bigger point games, i do agree with you point on it been slower tho, atleast for now.

I don't recognise deadly as a reason for more men, if 50 men die in 1500 point battles 58.33 will die in 1750. The Only thing larger point brackets do is they allow more freedom with allies(can be fun), and allow you to smush your skyline-like (peaks and troughs) specialist army into a generalist one-just like the other guy or not (and if not why). As "for now", I'm quite a few games in now, and as the haters point out, there are additional steps. You can't cut them out, you can't speed up the fact they need to be done. The game IS slower.(that doesn't mean worse though)

Ljundhammer wrote: the reason why I think that Blood Hammer doesn't work in this edition. You end up doing one thing 'quite well', the other thing 'quite well', and end up being 'good' at neither..

How many challenges do you want me to accept? Which one do you want me to bring out on sunday..I'll a whip ya with either with one foot in the mud and one hand holding a camera, whilst boyzone play on the stereo.

killmaimburn wrote:In the form of the specific/tailoring, I most certainly do not

i didnt mean this.

killmaimburn wrote:I've built my last 4 years worth of lists basically with MEQ in mind

i did mean this.

I approach my list with all codex's in mind, so i dont have too many power weapons and too much melta plasma of flamers etc. When i am trying to stretch my army to face all builds it seriously weakens it overall for specific armies. My list aim to be equally good at dealing with GEQ through flamers and blasts as i am against MEQ with power weapons and also TEQ with plasma. This then means i am not optimal for any one threat, so all armies give me problems but equally i have something that can deal with everything to some degree and it becomes about how employ it.

And just as you need to, so does the other guy

Yes but the other guys do not look for balance they just go with the bias so therefore dont need the extra points.

BANE wrote:

And just as you need to, so does the other guy

Yes but the other guys do not look for balance they just go with the bias so therefore dont need the extra points.

So you tailor against nige by being less specific.. I like the irony in that

Had a play around with DA at 1500:

HQ: Librarian - 110 (goes with platoon blob 1) - Warlord
Level 2, storm bolter, infravisor, force whatever
Psy powers - Divination primaris + AN Other

HQ: Librarian - 100 (goes with platoon squad 2)
Level 2, force axe
Psy powers - Divination primaris + AN Other

Elite: Dread - 120
2 x TL auto cannon

Elite: Dread - 120
2 x TL auto cannon

Troop: Tactial squad - 230
10 man, plasma gun, combi-plasma, melta bomb, flakk missile launcher, rhino

Troop: Tactial squad - 230
10 man, plasma gun, combi-plasma, melta bomb, flakk missile launcher, rhino

HQ: Primaris Psyker - 70 (goes with one of the platoons depending on psy powers rolled)
Psy powers - dunno, but something funny I expect

Troop: Platoon - 390
PCS - autocannon (stands near blob 1 or 2 to give FRFSRF)
Blob 1 - 20 man, 2 x autocannon, 2 x GL, 2 x melta bomb
Blob 2 - 30 man, 3 x power axe, 3 x melta bomb, 3 x flamer

Fast: Vendetta - 130

Total: 1500
7 scoring units (combat squaded tacs), 20 MEq, 55 GEq
Autocannons, lascannons, plasma guns
A little light on melta (read: none), but lots of melta bombs!

It's pretty much KMB's chaos army, but bikes are replaced with another blob & vendetta, and havocs are replaced by Dreads...

Hmm, I could drop the 2 librarians down to level 1, lose a melta bomb in a blob & add a techmarine with a servo harness. That sounds better...

"Psy powers - dunno, but something funny I expect"
biomancy to complement the blob?
I'm working on something at the mo, and will describe bits in a while
Why double divination and 2 rhino squads who don't have spare capacity for the HQs?

2 Flak missiles are not as good as warseer says.. I'd ditch them for regulars and 3 more anti tank weapons etc

HQs don't go with tacticals. HQs go with blobs.

Tacticals combat squad, plasma in rhinos, flakks at the back. Flakk is good, not super amazing, but enough to make flyers think (especially when I have a vendetta too).

Rhinos screen advancing squad, or vica versa depending on situation (which may mean that plasma squads job behind the blob).

I think LV2 for 35 points is too much, hence dropping for a techmarine to give MOAR killing power to advincing blob

Ljundhammer wrote:It's pretty much KMB's chaos army, but bikes are replaced with another blob & vendetta, and havocs are replaced by Dreads...

Urrrgh "i took out your bikes and just poored on more scrub"..thats not how I chaos, this is.

Azreal 215
Termies 1TH,1AC 1 CF=250
Ravenwing 6 bikes +MM attackbike, 2 melta 1 combi plas 246
Ravenwing 6 bikes +MM attackbike, 2 melta 1 combi plas 246
+double flamer speeder 60
Las Autocannon Pred-115
Las Autocannon Pred/HK missile-125
1257

Primaris Psyker-70
PCS 4 grenade launchers,Company comnnader has BP 52
Infantry squad autocannon,sarge has melta bomb 60
Infantry squad autocannon 60
=242
==1499

Rear guard are the PCS with grenade launchers who hold base out of LOS backed up by 2 preds
Shuffling back middle is super blob of 20men+psycker +beast that is azereal up front, they always have 4++ save, and FNP(trait)
Front midfield is Bike squad one, Bike squad 2

Strikers are MM attack bikes who get 12.01 “s away with scout move.. Also Double flamer.
And termies who come in at 6.01” turn 1 off the homers of the MMs, Storm bolters hit something, Asscan hits something else, THSS sits up front.

The bikes are much less scary due to incredibly attack number drop, so it needs the termies for fire element. Compared to chaos,bikes can score but aren’t as good (requiring termies to take their role whilst they take the role of the 5 man CSms) the autocannons vs flyers are roughly equal.More scoring units.

Now obviously if your on a "imma never taking 15 terminators again, I'm always going to field 120 models" this is sheer suicide even with my supermanx20 blob your 80 man blob wins. So I'd lose gracefully by popping your rhinos, then using grenade launchers to kill 1 or 2 guardsmen a turn( unless its an 8 hours game where all 120 men are exactly 1 inch apart) whilst you kill the fast threat of the flamers, and tie up the termies with power weapon blob.
My preds take out your flyer, my bikes soften your tacticals..but you'll slowly push me back with a grindfest from the second blob- You win. but above is how I'd double wing@1500 all comers and most normal hoards. If deathwing really is dead (and the greyknight meta has moved on) I might feel safe to bring out kantorBike again, that was lush (just couldn't deal with walls of av14 and 20 termies and IIRC it faced greywing+LRs , Smurfwing+command 2+s and raiders and deathwing the 6 times it came out)

I've got to say - that is a pretty poor imitation of your chaos army!

The chaos list works through the bikes. Now the bikes are not as good & need to fulfil the role of the CSM squads in your chaos list. 5 terminators scare precisely no-one.

Preds don't kill flyers, not enough shots.

Come back when you've thought about it better.

Yes, I am on the blob!

@ Toby, post you Choas list so we know what we are trying to match.

Well the one I've been battle reporting for ages here
Is now something like;
Lev 3 sorceror in termie armour with force axe, rolling on telepathy until its got some good stuff then biomancy 140 (rolls on command traits from BGB)
With 20 cultists with 2 heavy stubbers (after laspistols 59 attacks on the charge.29.5 hits/39 if invisible)..- 100
=240
At the back with some fire power
Havocsquad with autocannons 115
Havocsquad with autocannons 115
==470


Midfield/Scorers are
5CSM veterans(reroll and higher LD) swapping out for bolt pistols (NOT buying them) 1 melta gun, Sergeant has combiplas for sargent sniping. In a rhino, 135 each
5CSM veterans(reroll and higher LD) swapping out for bolt pistols (NOT buying them) 1 melta gun, Sergeant has combiplas for sargent sniping. In a rhino, 135 each
5CSM veterans(reroll and higher LD) swapping out for bolt pistols (NOT buying them) 1 melta gun, Sergeant has combiplas for sargent sniping. In a rhino, 135 each
=405
And midfield walking firepower comes from;
2 obliterators with MON (gotta to love the reintroducion of assualt cannon for midfield role and the return of T5)=152
==557
In big guns the oblits and havocs score.

Strikers/Straight in your facers are.
4 Bikes with MOK and veterans,2 Melta =122
4 Bikes with MOK and veterans,2 Melta =122
8 bikes with MOK and veterans 2 melta and a poweraxe=214
(Hammer of wrath+1Base+2CCWs+2 On charge, +1 for sarge)rerolling against anything space marine first turn.=21 attacks on the charge from small squad 41 from the larger.. If charged they have twinlinked snapshots (taken out 2 of stuntys thundernators ) and 13 /25attacks (with rerolls to hit in that important first round against space marines)
=458
In scouring they are all scoring.

===1485 Then I mess around adding dirge casters gargoyles etc etc to use up 15 points depending on how I feel that day.(EDIT- generally its melta bomb on big bike squad sarge and sorceror and dirge caster on front rhino)