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New DA Codex First Impressions

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New DA Codex First Impressions

Postby markb » Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:41 pm

Well as the title says what do you think of it? I like it, only had a quick look through the army list section at the minute so not looked at the fluff bit but I think it is a massive improvement on the last one.

Here's what I like:

Tactical Marines. Now the points values have been brought into line with the current SM codex I am happy. Yes you don't get free weapons if the squad is ten men but if you buy them then the points are the same as the equivalent SM squad. The good thing is though you don't have to have a ten man squad to have access to one special or heavy weapon, I can see this being in the new SM Codex. Having to pay to upgrade sergeants honestly doesn't bother me.

Scouts. At last they are troops! Probably still won't get any though as you can't give them a teleport homer.

Ravening. They've lost fearless but at now they are a huge amount cheaper, which is good as they were overpriced. The Knights look good but remains to be seen if I'll get any. The new speeders are a bit naff, especially the Vengeance which I think is overpriced and an awful model as well. The Nephilim is good and I think that is the Flyer I'll be going for.

Deathwing. My god Belial has got expensive! He's got a bit of a buff but 60 points more, just wow! Deathwing can now at least still have more than five man squads which is good but have got more expensive. The Knights look like they would be awesome against CSM but a bit meh against other 3+ save armies, will have to have a think about whether to use them.

All in all though with just this quick look I am quite happy with the new Codex, will have to sit down over the next few days and try ad come up with a list.
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Re: New DA Codex First Impressions

Postby RotweillerofJustice » Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:58 pm

I'm still reading mine. But I see that they have finally confirmed that the lion is still alive and in slumber under the rock.
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Re: New DA Codex First Impressions

Postby conscriptboris » Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:56 pm

been shaking out my lists, I cant see the DW knights making much of an appearence in my Deathwing. There initiative is average, CC being more difficult these days, id rather take cheaper DW that can move, shoot and assault, the knights miss the shooting opportunity due to no weapons.

still seeing if they can be a viable 'deception' on the board, but with all DW, no soldier is expendable!

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Re: New DA Codex First Impressions

Postby killmaimburn » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:08 pm

markb wrote:Tactical Marines. Now the points values have been brought into line with the current SM codex I am happy. Yes you don't get free weapons if the squad is ten men but if you buy them then the points are the same as the equivalent SM squad. The good thing is though you don't have to have a ten man squad to have access to one special or heavy weapon, I can see this being in the new SM Codex. Having to pay to upgrade sergeants honestly doesn't bother me.

Scouts. At last they are troops! Probably still won't get any though as you can't give them a teleport homer.
.
Min scouts with camo cloaks and missile launchers got 15 points cheaper.. now only 85 points.. Handy base unit at 100 handier base holder at 85..
Everyone chattering about the tactical marines, meh they just had to put them in because fluff says they are the most numerous things in any chapter.. unless your taking meq hoarde I'm not that impressed.


conscriptboris wrote:still seeing if they can be a viable 'deception' on the board,
What do you mean deception, you mean paper deathstar??

Being able to buy guys without termie honours is awesome.. want a cheap distraction unit- done and you even still have access to the wargear when you don't shellout for it.. Lush. (I'd go so far as to say this tread on the previous black templar design idea)
AP awesome and preferred stuff against chaos.. well chaos didn't last long in an edition again.

Azrael for double wing and the win.. just sayin. (pick a trait..lolz everyone dashing for the non random open tailoring)

killmaimburn wrote:I lol at belial, I think they hate him;
No longer needed to unlock termies troops
I1 weapon loadout a poor choice for an HQ.
Was already called captain useless/tax, as was by deathwing players
Rumoured to go up in points.
I hope some super secret thing like the "saga of smashing up all the enemies you could ever be against and smashing face guaranteed on a 1+" or something comes in to balance it out a bit.

Making precision shots on a 5+, unlocking termies and only super elite termies gaining from his not scatter rule.. Its not enough..
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Re: New DA Codex First Impressions

Postby conscriptboris » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:25 pm

First Rules WAR happening on several forums, is DW assault reserves, meaning 50% have to be on the board?

In the termie armour section it states, DW assault and Deep Strike as seperate, im going for DW assault allowing the whole army to appear on one turn...with twin-linked good-ness!

Elvis

@KMB: Im not a fan of deceptions, rather make a Deathstar unit and launch it into the opponents lines. I believe each unit should have multiple uses!
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Re: New DA Codex First Impressions

Postby killmaimburn » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:48 pm

1st rules war was to do with early pics.. apparently the whole strom shields linked=+1 toughness has 2 different readings depending on which section of the book your reading.. 1 comes with more prerequisites to activate.

Oh also apparently a fair chunk of memeworthy jokes about why dark angels hate chaos.. not to do with betrayal..cypher still walking to cadia.. on V long walk... Apparently the hatred is all to do with helldrakes.. haven't got round to reading the fluff though.. thats just what the internet is shouting at me.

killmaimburn wrote:First silly bash at a list using existing models.
Azareal #215

Fully silly maxxed out ravenwing squadron,6 bikes 2 melta+veteran sarge+combi plas(because precision shot plus plasma is a beautiful thing)multimelta attack bike, Landspeeder typhoon 331 points (pricy but when you consider it can split into 4 pieces...I interested)

Fully silly maxxed out ravenwing squadron,6 bikes 2 melta+veteran sarge+combi plas(because precision shot plus plasma is a beautiful thing)multimelta attack bike, Landspeeder typhoon 331 points

Scouts cloaks missile.85
5 Terminators i Chainfist 1 heavy flamer 235


Las Autocannon Predator#1 115 (How much for those silly devastators?? Pah)
Las Autocannon Predator#2 115
Las Autocannon Predator#3 115

1498
Everything scoring but the predators.. azaral is wasted in this list, just giving his divine protecion to the scouts, really ought to be a guard blob.. that would wreck face.Maybe shouldn't even be azareal.. but i think I only have him and the librarian as models (named librarian is sexy too.. but where would the bikes go then :lol: ).. :D
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PostThis post was deleted by killmaimburn on Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:12 pm.
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Re: New DA Codex First Impressions

Postby killmaimburn » Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:11 pm

Had our first game of it last night
I took my awesomely honed Chaos (bikes autohavoks sorcerorcultists 3 rhinomins etc)
LH took Belial, 3 termie squads. Dread (flamer MM ) in a drop pod,2 Riflemen, 2min tact with missile.
1500 Hammer and anvil (lengthways) Crusade (basic d3+2=4 Mysterious objectives)
Turn1
Bad luck for him,
basic squad scatter badly = delay.. Belial landed as planned (but with only dread for support)..
My entire army moves up and opens up on belial termie squad..Withering fire takes out the storm shield our front.. then AP weapon squads dump a load of hits on Belial, finally he fails a look out sir, takes a melta to the face and well melts..Charge remaining guy with Khorne bikes of many many attacks.
(Slay warlord and first blood)
Turn2
Termies all DS into middle of table due to cluster of objectives, but even with rerolls to hit everywhere he can’t dint through Kills 3 rhinos to pen me in a bit.droppod Dreadnought slowly chewing on the big bike squad (nobodies hitting)

I cast ummm?(/hallucination from telepathy table) On the far squad meaning they are out of actiomn for this turn..So I can focus on the 1 squad in the middle, 7 squads lower it down to 1 guy..charge with all cultists but its only the power axe on librarian that finally downs him. (If I want cultists to kill stuff I really need invisibility for the WS buff) Small bike squad eats tact squad 1,
Turn 4 ish??
His turn he has a locked dread, “Ummm?ed”3-4 termies, so 2 riflemen fire.

My turn I cast ummmm? And get the mega awesome roll 5-6 where they all hit each other with powerfists, 4 down. The other guy drops to autocannon fire. Bikes+oblits take out tacts and riflemen.

Messy Game, Maybe LH will comment here, He said too many termies in too smaller points bracket now. I reckon he had a piecemeal army killed by bad reserves rolls.. Each turn my entire army got to focus on one unit..Until he ran out.
Not really a good test of the codex.Will try again and I may take an army I've mastered a tad less.
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Re: New DA Codex First Impressions

Postby Ljundhammer » Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:34 pm

Piecemeal army is correct!

I tried a DW+ army. It failed. It failed because small numbers of uber troops is a fundamentally bad 6th ed design (as I suspected). It wasn't helped by a bit of bad luck, but a bit of bad luck is something a decent list can overcome, alas DW is not decent.

I suspected that DW was dead as a 6th ed army, and I was proved correct. As an addition to another army (Greenwing or IG or even BA at a pinch) I think they could work well. But as an army of their own? Wait for 7th ed and save the pain - they were hard to use in 4th & 5th but could eke out wins - that's no longer the case unless you're playing someone who hasn't really grasped what 6th is and how it works.

I don't like double wing either for the same reason. Unless you shove some IG I'm for scoring, but I doubt you can squeeze all the into an effective 1500 list.
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Re: New DA Codex First Impressions

Postby BANE » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:09 pm

Care to expand on why you think they dont work in 6th, Nige may be intrested too.
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Re: New DA Codex First Impressions

Postby Ljundhammer » Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:50 pm

Pure DeathWing:

Not enough scoring units
Not enough shooting
Not fast enough without land raiders - with land raiders then you definately won't have enough scoring
Small units can only realistically assault one unit, but can be shot at by & assaulted by many, many units
Large units can't combat squad, so won't be able to effectively multicharge unless your opponent lets you
With expensive HQ & expensive troops, getting a Librarian in is difficult

I could go on. But with the return of plasma in a big way, then terminators with a 5++ simpley don't last very long. And the best way to kill terminators is with bolt guns or las guns - as the all-infantry army is "the new black" then your opponent should have a lot of that sort of shizzle.
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Re: New DA Codex First Impressions

Postby killmaimburn » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:02 pm

Reading his mind somewhat poorly, with my super ninja ESP skills that know exactly what Bane had for breakfast..

I'd suggest that LH believes the only consistent thing to come out thus far in our games is high XYZ (T6, #model count #attacks #shots) over specialist XYZ rule.
I'm not sure its necessarily true (if that is what he thinks), I think the 2 codexs thus far are much more reliant on working out synergys and combos (inc allys) than individual units that are "good" times 4(which actually LH just said in that other post so he must be referring to just model count??? :lol: ).

Using the wargear section is back and can't be ignored even if your just taking horde (in which case for example you'd take banner of devastation for a billion bolter shots). Chaos falls down in having some truly duff artifacts (mace on DP and axe on juggerlord being only 2 I'd think of taking), and not great traits.Dark angels (thus far) appears to lack value for money anti flyer (which will become a pain when fighting flyercron or flyerchaos..heck if this trend continues it might even struggle against those dakkajets..apparently there is some fluff in the book describing this, although it might just be warseer hysterics).. but those and psychic powers (added to an army for 1/23rd of your points) must be considered parts of a whole now of what is considered a balanced army.
(They made it clear to chaos players (bar nurgle and undivided) last edition that specialist sub lists were dead meat..so I've had time to learn to mix it up, I ponder what will happen to eldar craftworld/sublists in that environment,equally how awesome would tau be under that design paradigm 8) )

In 3000 points you can have flyers and hoard and elite CC and weight of fire and lascannons and av14 and all the psychic powers of 2nd ed and 12 scoring units, in 1500 your just supposed to be able to deal with all of that.The only thing thats changed is (because flyers and psykers are cheap) people are bringing more of a mix of everything, I bring tiger missile to your rock, paper, scissors if you will. (which LH has also said elsewhere)

Me+LH agree that 6th ed generally has killed "the teapot" (his template of 2/3 LRs 2/3 termies) because the transports are back to being nothing 5/6ths of the time, he'll only ace KPs 1/6th of the time and he now has far too few scoring units (at the UK bracket) to do anything.
I think the established thing has happened that I've intuitively got hold of this edition, and LHs learning curve/studying and focusing on stuff has yet to catchup(then overtake),it doesn't help that most of the web outright lies about what 6th ed is and how to play it.
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Re: New DA Codex First Impressions

Postby Ljundhammer » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:29 pm

killmaimburn wrote:it doesn't help that most of the web outright lies about what 6th ed is and how to play it.


This is very true! I went back to Stelek a couple of weeks ago & I think he's got a good grip on it now (after not getting it for the first few months).

I think the flaw in our games at the moment is playing at 1500. This is far too limiting for 6th. I've been thinking about it for a few weeks now - a good army need to think about:
a) anti-flyer
b) anti-horde
c) anti-MEq
d) anti-vehicle
e) anti-MC

Most 1500 point armies can't do this (although KMB's is one of very few that can, although I'll reserve judgement on true horde as even at 1500 that is far too dull even for me to play properly).

In addition, 1500 takes out the core 'point' of the game - allies and synergy. Reading through the DA codex, there are so many little tricks and sysnergies that can easily be missed. For example, Azzy in an IG blob is obvious, but needs to be overlooked at 1500 (although a librarian could work...), but nightshrouds are now popping up in good lists all over the place (take with black nights to give them a 2+ invulnerable - I'll let you work out why - or look at 3++ comments). With such restricted points, rather than being able to use synergy, you're using basic points costs for everything to squeeze in what you must take. Chaos, I believe, has the same problem.

I'm bowing out at 1500, ToS can suck my balls - GW don't get how to play their own game, so they won't be getting my money to play 'with' them.
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Re: New DA Codex First Impressions

Postby killmaimburn » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:41 pm


You need more gritz to cross this river..
Go on one more 1500, I'll accept your challenge I'll take doublewing, you bring something like bloodhammer or something.
Then we'll bounce back up to 1750 again.
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Re: New DA Codex First Impressions

Postby Ljundhammer » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:43 pm

One more.

I'm bringing Guard. I refuse to give up on Guard.

I never give up, never surrender. Except to your chaos list. And on DeathWing. And on life in general.

Imperial guard - you are my only hope.
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