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New WH Meeting & Army List Template, anyone?

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New WH Meeting & Army List Template, anyone?

Postby richie2837 » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:32 am

Hi All,

A few would-be gamers in our town met for the first time last night in the local library with a view to playing WH, painting, modelling etc. in a group. As we are all wet-behind-the-ear newbies, it was a bit chaotic as the kids launched themselves into a battle with whatever models they had brought with them (with no thought of the points levels), but good fun nonetheless and we intend to get together each week.

Clearly we need to develop the meetings and have a bit more structure - so anyone with any experience of this please feel free to offer your thoughts.

One thing which did become clear is the need for everyone to work out precisely the size of their army in points and characters. Rather than re-invent the wheel I thought I would do a quick search online for an existing template which we could use. Unfortunately I've found nothing, but heard talk of a program called Army Builder. Is this any good, and would it be suitable for what we want to do? I don't want to pay out for something that won't be used, when an excel spreadsheet would do just as well. Does anyone know of anything already out there, which can be shared?
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Postby killmaimburn » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:49 am

Army builder 3.3 is meant to be brilliant (but requires a subscription, so I don't use it)- the licence is also (I believe) tied to your hardware config and so cannot be shared...But you do appear to get 1 extra licence on purchase.(can someone confirm that?) 2.2 is old unsupported (so reliant on someone on their home PC updating its codexs out of pity for you) and still costs (but a one off payment rather than a subscription)
there’s a lot of cross over between here and http://www.ab40k.org/ a place not affiliated to wolf lair that keeps the files up to date.

there are others but most are to be avoided like the plague (the official games workshop one hasn't been updated to include the last 5 or 6 codexs so is a real waste).
I would suggest since you need the codexs anyway (legal) that you start small and just make sure that everyone has a list thats legible (e.g. typed with points and upgrades listed).. and then folks refer backwards and forwards from the simple list to the codex..
Quick army builders are most useful when it comes to swapping or optimising because the juggling of points is so much faster.. if your just totting up to a tally then pencil paper and calculator should be enough.
(expect folks to get their points way out anyway..if folks don't know that 300+200=500 not much can stop that)
EDIT- there was one in a closed forum group but thats just been closed down due to infringing too much copyright called army roster ..never gave that one a try..never will now.
Summary sheets with stats on are given out by GW and are also good to have in your hand http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/conte ... Id=3400013 (as are the latest FAQs/erratas.. where they fix the errors in the books http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/conte ... Id=3400019
Hope it helps
KMB
Last edited by killmaimburn on Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:58 am, edited 8 times in total.
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Postby Spack » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:06 am

Addressing KMB's post:

Yes, you get 2 licenses for the initial purchase price. These are for all software updates and autoupdating of files for 1 year. After this 1 year license expires you can opt to either (a) renew the license at a reduced cost for another year, or (b) not renew and lose the autoupdates and any software patches but you can still import .ab files manually.

You can also purchase up to 2 additional licenses at reduced cost - they are all tied to your personal details, but it does allow you to run AB on up to 4 machines that you own on the same license, and you can transfer licenses should you need to - hardware failure/replacement, OS reinstall, etc - although transferrence is limited to once per few months for each license. The license transfer process is quick and simple, and you should rarely need to do it anyway.

AB 2.2 can't be bought any more, so that's not an option. You might as well buy AB 3 if you're going to spend money - at least the files are maintained more regularly, and it's current, and you get 1 year of support and autoupdating, and then you can just opt not to renew if you want and still use the software. However, should a new version come out after the license expires (say, AB3.5 or AB4 is released) then you would need to buy all over again if you needed the newer version.

Army Builder is available from http://www.wolflair.com

As KMB pointed out already, the 40k files are available from http://www.ab40k.org and this is the site the 40k maintainers use for collecting and fixing bugs and releasing updates.


The biggest problem with something like an Excel template is the complexity of the codex options - Excel isn't designed for handling all that, it's a glorified calculator. You could just get your players to list everything in Excel and sum the points column but that doesn't stop players from putting the wrong points costs in, or choosing options that aren't allowed, which is what AB is designed to do.
Last edited by Spack on Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby killmaimburn » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:15 am

There is this one http://www.geocities.com/tjs_files/ArmyListBuilder.xls
(Its a deep link I'm sorryfrom here but librium is offline right now)
Its just blank sheets in a 40k order but it might help
Apologies to Technique13 the creator for the deeplink. (and as spack says its won't stop folks saying a land raider is 25 points)
Last edited by killmaimburn on Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:17 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby richie2837 » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:35 am

Thanks guys, really useful info.

Has anyone ever created a word doc. for players to handwrite their army lists onto for later transferring to computer?
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Postby killmaimburn » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:54 am

Not sure quite what you mean.. you mean like an OCR program. where you'd scan in folks handwritten sheets and it would input the data onto a database/formulaic display? OCRs are there and that excell sheet has the format.. but you'd have to ask the computer ninjas if there is a way to shuffle/sort scanned text into relevant forms/boxes. (thats beyond me)

OCRs available off the shelf in most computer shops.
Last edited by killmaimburn on Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:56 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Spack » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:31 pm

If you're after a template just to type into, GW did have a 40k roster sheet PDF on their site and there are plenty of free online PDF to Word converters around so you could convert that PDF to a Word doc.
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Postby Baragash » Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:28 pm

Spack wrote:The biggest problem with something like an Excel template is the complexity of the codex options - Excel isn't designed for handling all that, it's a glorified calculator. You could just get your players to list everything in Excel and sum the points column but that doesn't stop players from putting the wrong points costs in, or choosing options that aren't allowed, which is what AB is designed to do.


As an analyst I have to say that's way off base. With the new Codex formats, it's significantly easier as well. I have built one before, but it was for the 3rd Ed SM Codex (and included DH and WH allies).

However the time required vs my own maths skills doesn't really justify the effort (at least given the amount of time I get to play at the moment).

Normally I have a manual entry sheet with the headings:
A. Unit Total =G+(D*(E+F))
B. Unit Name
C. FoC Slot
D. No of Models
E. Cost (per model)
F. Squad Upgrades (per model)
G. One-off Upgrades
H. Notes (ie squad upgrades)

Not foolproof by any means, but simple to use.
Last edited by Baragash on Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:11 pm

personally, i think that new players should learn how to write army lists for themselves before they start using programs that do it for them (a bit like how we learn to add in school before we start using calculators).

everyone has their own way of doing things, but IMO the important stuff is:

- split the list by FOC section (for example, all your HQ under the "HQ" heading, then all your Troops under the "TROOPS" heading etc, not just in any old order) - this will make it easy to check that you have the right numbers of each FOC choice, and is especially important in 5th ed where only Troops are Scoring.

- put the total points cost for each unit (and for each FOC section) down one side of the list - this makes it easy to check the army's total points value

- for each unit, list the unit name and (where appropriate) squad size, plus the basic cost of the unit/cost per model. then list basic equipment, and options taken, with the points cost given for each option - this makes it easy to check that the unit's total cost is correct. if the unit has special models, like Veteran Sergeants/Exarchs/Officers etc, list them on their own line to make it clear what items belong to them and what belongs to the rest of the unit. if the unit has a Dedicated Transport, then list this directly below the unit in its own line.

- put the total cost for the force, as well as the name of the Codex being used at the very top (include the player's name as well if everyone is playing in a group). if the force uses army-wide options (like IG Doctrines for example), then put these at the top of the list as well. new players may also find it useful to note the number of Scoring Units they have, and the number of KP their army is worth.

- at the bottom of the page (or on the back if the list takes up too much space), the player should ideally include a reference sheet. (the ones GW provide are OK, but have typos and dont necessarily include all the information required - plus they would include units that the player hasnt taken, and might have things in an inconvenient order)
split the reference sheet into sections: (non-Vehicle) Models, Vehicles, Weapons, Wargear/Special Rules.
include as much relevant information as possible. for example, for a Model, dont just give its statline - give its page number in the codex, list its special rules (which you can give in more detail in their own section at the bottom of the list). movement rates would also be useful for new starters too (just because the M stat isnt on the statline anymore doesnt mean you cant put it there).
by copying out the relevant rules for their army onto their own reference sheet, a player will learn and remember the rules far better than if they just looked them up every time. also, by putting just the stuff they need on the sheet, and putting it in an appropriate order (for example, list models' stats in the order in which the models appear on the army list), it will make it much easier to find things in the heat of battle.

personally, i just use a simple Text file to make my lists, and add things up with a calculator. Excel can be good for adding things up for you (and ammending unit costs if you change the squad size etc), but a simple mistake in your formulas can mess everything up and take ages to track down. its also too easy to spend more time working on your spreadsheet and not enough time considering the army itself. handwritten lists should be the last resort for those without access to a PC IMO - even with perfect handwriting they arent ideal, as they are difficult to edit (unlike those saved on a PC). its also much more work to provide copies for opponents etc. ;)

anyways, i hope that helped on the list writing front. all of the above is of course just my own personal opinion on the subject - others may do things completly differently. :)

as to organising games, why not ask everyone to bring lists at 400/500 CP, 750, 1000 and 1500 pts all made from the same army? that way, no matter how big or small your collection, you will be able to find someone to play. you also dont need to worry about arranging individual games in advance (i wish i had thought of this when starting out: if i arranged a game at a set size but my opponent didnt show, i would often have to write a list from scratch to play someone else who brought a different sized army, which would detract from the playing time) - just find an opponent on the day and pick the lists that are the same size (or not, if you want to play 2 vs 1 games, e.g. 2 x 740 vs 1 x 1500).

hope that helps,

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