Rivers as scenery in games.

I've always thought they looked good but actually just carved the table into sections that are either used to play in or what effectively amounts to no-mans land. Anyone else have the same experience? In scenario games where the river is important they obviously have (or can have) more of an influence, but for a typical random mission/set-up type game, are they worthwhile?

And as we are talking rivers, what rules do you use for them?

Funnily enough, I'm planning a "waterworld" battle soon.

The TWAT table top is painted to resemble water, with terrain boards over the top. Waterworld is a configuration that uses hills, etc as islands.

You are right, rivers (in our case, canals) do chop the board into areas that you don't really want to go in. Best thing in my experience, is a feature that bisects the table from long edge to long edge, near the centre, otherwise, "refused flank" is a near certainty, except for jump packs, etc.
You need plenty of crossing points, too.

In the game coming up, I'm thinking about giving a 6+ cover save for anything in (on, if you like) the water, to encourage using it more.

To paragraph 1: Depends how you play them...

I normally play them as Difficult Terrain, so IMO they don't have the effect you describe*. If it was a big river I'd add Dangerous to it.

*In Fantasy yes, because rivers in my experience are usually very difficult terrain so they're only practically crossable by bridge.

I think considering a river impassable is the province of designed scenarios.

Yes, certainly the problem is more obvious in fantasy. But even in 40K I see it. It's like the river marks some kind of border that people avoid crossing. Perhaps it's psychological...

I have bunkers (as in golf, sand pits.. not the av14s).. they provide a 5-6+ cover save, difficult.. but not dangerous to tracked or skimming vehicles (jump troops and jetbikes the sand clogs their intake valves=dangerous)
Normally between 2-5% of table.
It works very well, because a rhino will pelt over it..whereas my bikes try to stay as far away as possible in case getting lashed into it or being forced through cheeky tactics to have to enter it due to combat rules.
I don't play rivers.. but if I did, it would be similar.
We haven't used roads in a while, and we just started using our buildings as either ruins or impassable terrain features of late- we got a bit lazy.

In Fantasy I have given up using them as they do seem to be a very big barrier to movement (which is what they should be), you end up having a big zone for your dead pile. Or lone Unit size 10 taking the quarter for 100 vp's.
(remember in the rules it says not to have any scenery features within 12" of the table center - so rivers will always end up on the flank unless you have a pre-defined scenerio)

For WH40K, only really do it when the bridge represents an actual objective.

In one large game we had the Dark Angels and Space Wolves trying to get an Imperial official from one side of the bridge to the other while holding off an encircling Chaos Marine force (Bridge was approx 24" long).

In another, the bridge represented 3 Objective points in an Apocalypse game.

I normally treat the river as being difficult ground for movement, but no problems to Skimmers and jetbikes.
But find that most people still steer clear of it even if it is the most direct route.

One day I'd like to try a game where one table edge represents the sea and have my Imperial Guard force do an amphibious landing (just need some Landing craft models to deliver the Leman Russ tanks).

Did someone say beach assualt?
I think that might actually be an old GW one they had on the old site.

I think it is more psychological. U can asign any rules you like to a river... even none.

But even a river with no rules is a nice addition, eye-candy-wise, to your board. They just look great.

Make them as much a part of your game as you like, so long as you and your opponent both agree. I think as u involve the river more and more, your games will become more interesting also, that's what I've found.

BDA keeps saying he wants to do a beach assault.

Matt, any suggestions on modeling a river? Pre-made stuff or scratchbuilt?

I have some of the vac-formed river sections from Amera but have never got round to doing anything with them (anyone want them? I could bring them to the meetup in a couple of weeks). Down the years I've made lots of rivers myself but you need to plan to make a decent variety of sections to make have a modular set which you can swap around. I've currently only got some straight sections that I made for a bunch of 40K games in a tournament we were running years back (capture the bridge game). I'll take some pictures and post them in a bit. Like most things, they are not hard to make but you just need to dedicate the time to planning and doing.

With my current pile of buildings and figures that need my time painting, I'm thinking of buying pre-made rivers instead of making more to expand on the straight sections (which means these will be free if anyone wants them too!). I'm interested in the ones Nige is about to start stocking

I think I'll then try and play more games with rivers as a terrain feature. I need to paint up my Pegasus techno-bridge and I've had a Forge World wooden bridge for fantasy kicking around for a couple of years now as I've been waiting for a decent river to use it with.

I also have a load of fantasy road sections from daemonscape I need to paint up - I'll try and convert a ford section to match river and road sections.

OK, got some pictures.

Here's the homemade ones




6mm mdf base (although this was warped slightly after all these years and maybe most of that spent in Paul's damp shed!). Banks built from putty and gravel. Filler used in river and banks.

Each is 60cm/24" long so two will span a normal table. I drew out but never got round to making all the other sections.


Here's the amrea set if anyone is interested (free):


And while I'm giving stuff away (free). I have this large Amera building which I don't have room to store if I make it





And for completeness, here are the daemonscape roads I mentioned

I might need some more to have enough variety and to help convert some ford sections.

I'm always interested in free stuff and the river does look interesting/cool.(all my current environment is desert..so i could do with a change)
The road looks darn cool -best (but thats the one your keeping right?)

I'd say I want the building too, but that would just be being greedy.If noone else pips up I've got space.. but I think free stuff should be a 0-1 cap to prevent people like me snatching it all.

Yeah I'm keeping the road

Just let me know what you want and I'll bring it with me up north

Can you bring the entire shed and all of its contents as of right now please, Matt?
I think that constitutes a public verbal agreement that would stand in petty claims court.