berger15 wrote:The Codexes are all gradually updated, some seem to come around more quickly than others - but I think that could just be my failing memory! I'm sure the Tau and the Templars are itching to get updates. CSM and DA appear to be the next editions due out IF the rumours about the boxed set contents are to be believed. Would be rather remiss to issue them in the boxed set and then not update the codexes to match the curtrent rules edition.

WH 8th ed has been out for 2 years and they haven't updated the HE and Skaven lists so I wouldn't hold your breath on that one!

Iceman99 wrote:from the sounds of it (berger15 and a few others!!!) it will proberly be a case of lump it for a couple of months (maybe 6) before the new codex is released before your army is actually viable for the full 6th edition rules, i have a bretonnian army and within 8th edition fantasy it just doesn't work! because i have knights and it is no longer a point and click army, i have now moved on and gone for ogres, not the usual ironblaster army but it is from the new book which is written for that edition, remember time will tell, i am one of the fortunate ones (or crazy!!) that have multiple armies so will only have to buy the new books when they are released, i have a chaos marine (thousand sons) army and it kinda works with 5th, it's not as bad as some make out. i think wait, get the book (borrow the book) and change (if needed) tactics, army selection. the whole thing of a rule change is so you will buy the new juicy models, Storm Talon (got one) and dakka jet.....................................................................

Its all well and good saying wait a couple of months but GW don't update their Codexes that quick, or in any sort of logical order, i.e giving a Codex or WH Army Book a set shelf life like they do with the 4 year rotation of their core games, a prime example being the old DE Codex, it was the second Codex released under 3rd ed in 98/99 and was only replaced what, two years ago? I agree with you about the Bretonnians, the new cavalry rules really screwed them over.

TheColonel wrote:"Oh boo hoo, 6th edition is gonna ruin my gaming experience".....

....I say grow a pair. Random charges, why not coz it made fantasy more interesting. Hull points, cool, coz it may counter all these bloody melta armies that are about. The list could go on really, all that seems to be coming out of this is that everybodys tournament armies will need revision. If you dont want too play it then dont bother but it seems to be a step forward in my opinion and i for one cant wait to pick it up on saturday morning.
5th edition is full of many flaws and open to interesting interpretations of the rules so bring on 6th coz it can only be for the better. Besides my 4th edition eldar codex will probably still kick all the newer codexes asses regardless.

So cheer up, buy the rules, read them and play some games with them then pass judgement because if the only argument you have is that it will make your army lose then you need to get a grip

I think what everyone is saying is that what works for WH will not necessarily work in 40K. 2nd ed had very similar mechanics to 4th ed WH. As a skirmish game it was great (Necromunda) but didn't quite work as a mass combat game. The biggest problem with a massive revision of the rules like this, as I have already said, is that older armies will either be massively overpowered (HE in WH) or completely nerfed (Bretonnians). I have already said that I will wait and see what the general opinion is before committing to buying it.

With all this debate about 6th ed, please remember the rules were not updated because they needed it, or because people wanted it. they were updated to sell you new copies of the rule book and new codices by making your existing ones out of date.

The big issue with this approach is that the rules cannot evolve and close the loopholes etc, as they are not around long enough.

Estarriol, I agree. 2nd to third ed 40K and 5th to sixth ed WH were complete rewrites, in 40K it made the game flow a lot more and WH managed to more or less get rid of the "Herohammer" phase of the game. Arguably both of those sets of rules needed a complete rewrite to sort out the gameplay. 3rd ed 40K didn't need a lot of work but they buggered about with it anyway and with 4th ed was probably the two best versions of the game. The late nineties saw them break with the 4 year cycle as there was six years between 3rd and 4th ed 40K and 6th and 7th ed WH, admittedly this was probably due to the inclusion of LotR into the core range, but I think that extra time gave them stability. Unfortunately the four year cycle is back and seems to be hard coded in to the GW business model and so we are stuck with it. One saving grace might be with the release of the Hobbit films due this year and next it might make them rewrite LotR and give the other two games longer. I just hope that 6th ed 40K is worth any extra time.

I've been playing 40K since 2nd ed but the way the game has been going for the last few years I have decided not to invest in the new rules.
One of the main reasons is £45 for a set of rules. Bolt Action miniatures will be releasing a WW2 set in hard back with over 200 pages for £25. I can't help thinking GW are pricing themselves out of the buisiness.
I have played FOW but I prefer Rapid Fire

estarriol wrote:With all this debate about 6th ed, please remember the rules were not updated because they needed it, or because people wanted it. they were updated to sell you new copies of the rule book and new codices by making your existing ones out of date.

The big issue with this approach is that the rules cannot evolve and close the loopholes etc, as they are not around long enough.

I agree with this entirely.

They should have a set of rules and stick with them apart from fixing loopholes etc. But if they didn't release new rule books, there wouldn't be new codecies and as a result no band wagon hoppers. GW's sales would drop. And as we all know, GW is extremely addicted to our money. Which is part of what I have a problem with.
As for the new rules... I'll wait to see what peeps think after playing a few games before passing judgement (or buying). A few things I like the sound, like alies which will allow me to take units from the vanilla marine dex with my BA. Some things confuse me, like the psychic power cards. Do they replace powers in the codecies? Or augment them? What about them with special characters? Special characters can't usually be altered. Are the new rules going to prevent or reduce assault? Are we going to see more mech lists? I'll wait and see.

Ian, I have to agree with you as well. 3rd ed was great, 4th ed good, 5th ed ok and as I said before in another thread I have hardly played 5th ed at all so now 6th ed is nearly on us I just can't get excited. The problem is I think it is just us older gamers who are grumbling about GW, the kids will probably still lap it up. I remember when I first got into the hobby and started going to my first club in Germany, all the older gamers looked down their noses at us whipper snappers playing GW games saying pretty much the things we are all saying now, maybe its an age thing!

Its not just the constant changing of the rules either, the massive prices GW are charging for things now are just turning me off, I love some of the models don't get me wrong, but some of the prices are just ridiculous and I cannot justify a new army at all. It was like when the new Orc and Goblin book came out, prior to its release you could get a box of 19 Orc Boyz for £18, after it came out they dropped it to 10 Boyz for the same price and they were the same models, that's nearly a 100% price increase. In some cases if it wasn't for GF's discount you would be paying £25 for 10 plastic models, and I thought the whole point of them going to plastics was to reduce the cost for the gamer! £45 for the rule book is a lot, especially as probably 70% of it (the fluff etc) I don't need. I understand that they are a business and they have to make money but constantly taking the p1$$ with pricing will only turn your customers away in the end.

When the new box comes out I think that I will have a look on eBay for the mini book if the reviews of the game are not too bad but I don't think I will be paying for the full size rulebook.

skywalker wrote:I've been playing 40K since 2nd ed but the way the game has been going for the last few years I have decided not to invest in the new rules.
One of the main reasons is £45 for a set of rules. Bolt Action miniatures will be releasing a WW2 set in hard back with over 200 pages for £25. I can't help thinking GW are pricing themselves out of the buisiness.
I have played FOW but I prefer Rapid Fire

Skywalker, if you haven't already try 'I Ain't Been Shot Mum' from toofatlardies, great rules at that game level.

The high prices and poor rules don't discourage people tho, ill say it again GW is a business with a model thus, we don't care if the rules are not perfect because we are a MINIATURES company and we will sell all of our products based on the fact that people what to buy what we believe are the best toy soldiers in the world! And they probably are.

I really don't get the issue, we are getting a new set of rules allows us to try new things, develop new tactics and new lists and maybe buy some new model on the way! This is what GW wants and its what I want to because coming up with away to beat IG with GK allies in 4 hull point uber mech lists of doom involves playing games, and win loss or draw that's where the fun comes from.

As for playing the game since RT days and now not buying into cos of the cot, I don't see many people sticking to that either, SEGA release a new updated copy of Football Manager every year, I could get away with playing the previous year's copy, but no-one does, its human nature to want the latest copy of the thing you enjoy.

BANE wrote:I could get away with playing the previous year's copy, but no-one does, its human nature to want the latest copy of the thing you enjoy.

↑ This. Whether you like or dislike GW, they are in business to make money. And you don't make money be just restocking the same old product line year after year. You come up with new things for people to buy.

My only hope is that these rules are written a bit better than the last set, but I doubt it. I think the problem is that the rules are written by people who play against each other all the time, so many rules that the gamer's try to figure out, the designer's have been doing in a certain way for so long it's second nature, so no need to be explained.

I think the new rules will make for a better game, but no one knows for sure at this point.

I get your point about Football Manager, I am an addict and have lost many hours to the worlds most addictive spreadsheet but this is the first year since I started playing back in 95 with CM2 that I haven't bought the latest version, purely for the fact that the last couple of versions have not really moved the franchise on, well that and the fact that a lot of games now come out broken (especially from Sega) and it takes months to patch them up to a working level, just look at Empire Total War on release, and this is my point. Perceived new and shiny only goes so far, there comes a point when you realise that all they are doing is chrome plating the same old sh!t and I am afraid that that is the point that I am at with GW and 40K. Your view is different and I respect that, it is, after all, your view. This is my view. I hope I am proved wrong and this turns out to be the greatest game ever produced.

That still doesn't alter the fact that GW's pricing is bloody outrageous though. I was going to collect a new Orc and Goblin army when the last Army Book came out but when I put a list together I balked at the sheer price of it. Its not that I can't afford it, I can, (my SM army has a ton of FW conversion stuff in it) and over the years I must have spent thousands in there, its just getting harder for me to justify the outlay. I realise they are a business and they have to make money, that is obvious, however for me they are beginning to price themselves out of a market. Like I said, yes I like the models but come on, £25 for 10 plastic soldiers? And Finecast, a cheaper material to work in and they are more expensive than the metal? That's when they aren't actually faulty either.

The problem is, getting back to the Football Manager analogy, SI's game was head and shoulders above everybody else and have built up a massive following and so do not have anybody compete with. This is also like Creative Assembly with the Total War franchise. When you have got that far ahead it is easy to become complacent, think you can churn out any old crap and the paying public will buy it, and in the main they do, out of loyalty or the fact they want to own the latest thing of what they love. Championship Manager is closing the gap on FM and maybe this will cause SI to pull their finger out and revolutionise the franchise. I realise that I have sort of gone off on a tangent here but if GW aren't careful then up and comers like Mantic will catch them and overtake them and the suits at GW will be left wondering where it all went wrong.

I also get your point about having to come up with new lists and tactics with the new rules, however if the new rules are not to someones taste then no amount of having to rethink things will make it fun. 3rd ed Epic was very different to 2nd ed, I loved 2nd ed but 3rd ed, despite having all the things you say you are looking forward to like having to come up with new tactics etc, was just a truly awful game to play. The rules are just as important as anything else in the hobby, you could have the greatest miniatures in the world but if the game is awful to play whats the point? Its the old style over substance argument. My general apathy towards this version means its going to have to be something VERY special to rekindle my love for it.

BANE wrote:SEGA release a new updated copy of Football Manager every year, I could get away with playing the previous year's copy, but no-one does,

Erm, I'm still playing 2009

BANE wrote: we don't care if the rules are not perfect because we are a MINIATURES company and we will sell all of our products based on the fact that people what to buy what we believe are the best toy soldiers in the world!

Piff paff twiddle and tosh.

If this were true, why are a miniatures company writing rules and fluff?
Why are books on-sale in the stores?

They are shit at writing rules and yet keep doing so and they sell this shit as part of the hobby.
If you are happy with substandard rules, why not with rubbish miniatures?

For anyone who actually plays the game and is not just buying models, why is it acceptable that a fundamental part of the hobby can be treated so shabbily?

The rules will never be perfect, but if they put half the effort into writing them that any motivated player would, they would be a damn sight better.

So no, they are not just a MINIATURES company at all.

timewizard wrote:Whether you like or dislike GW, they are in business to make money.

Granted, but when the greed gets too much for me, someone is about to get a size 10 boot deep striking where the sun don't shine.

For me, its not about like/dislike for them per se, it is about if I'm being reasonably treated/charged for what I get.

Good bad or the ugly, we are a captive market, they are trying to dish out vastly expensive stuff to us, a probably diminishing market, because they know we have a habit.

I'm carrying enough junk around with me now, I don't want another straw.

No problem is, other companies write rules for their figures (Black Powder) at only £25 and the figures are a LOT cheaper!

Even the better metal models in 25mm (Front Rank) are only around £1-50 per figure

Exactly, look at the price of the Mantic stuff as well and their KoW is just a nice as GWs WH stuff, and that is the point I have been trying to make. GW are overpriced and I have got to the point where their marketing strategy is outweighing my love of the hobby. Victrix can churn out 50 or 60 multi part plastic 28mm Napoleonic infantry for £20, why are the GW charging £25 for 10?

@ Thecolonel - When do I ever win, so what does that matter to me? I am more worried that I am going to end und playing WFB and WFB space skirmish. . . .