Hoyo,

I've had a chance to read up on the new moral/no retreat rules in 5th, which have changed quite significantly. Here's a synopsis:

If you lose close combat, and are not fearless, you must take a morale check with a negative equal to the number of wounds you lost by.

Example: A squad of 15 orks fight a squad of 8 space marines. The orks kill 1 space marine, the space marine kills 6 orks. At the end of the assault phase, the orks must make a leadership test at -5 (roll a Edit for mob rule 4), or run away (and possibly get sweeping advanced/destroyed)

Personally, I really dislike this idea as it seems to further disadvantage swarm style armies like orks, and massively benefit high armor save armies like marines.

If you are in close combat, and you are fearless, you take a number of wounds at the end of the turn equal to the number of wounds you lost CC by.

Example: A unit of 32 orks (fearless now) fights a 15 man squad of space marines. The orks kill 3 space marines, the marines kill 10 orks. The orks must then take 7 additional armor saves at the end of CC (killing about 6 additional orks).

Once again, I am not fond of this change. The 4th ed outnumbered rules gave some advantage to having tons of easily killable CC units (gaunts, orks, etc), but the 5th ed rules makes them even less effective.

~Murphey

so does outnumbering play no part whatsoever in working out who wins/if the loser runs away?

no more of the "Walkers count as x models, MCs count as y models..." etc?

something that does sound odd:
why should the number of wounds the winners took affect the number they can dish out if the loser is too brave/stupid to run away? "an extra rounds worth" of wounds might have made sense, but it seems totally arbitrary to reduce the damage by the number of wounds lost, especially if the original amout of damage was inflicted was done so after the casualties suffered had been removed...

cheers

~ Tim

Difference in models killed are modifiers to the losing players leadership. As they lost combat, they have to make LD test, am I right?
Can't remember the rest

Murphey wrote:Example: A squad of 15 orks fight a squad of 8 space marines. The orks kill 1 space marine, the space marine kills 6 orks. At the end of the assault phase, the orks must make a leadership test at -5 (roll a Edit for mob rule 4), or run away (and possibly get sweeping advanced/destroyed)

Example: A unit of 32 orks (fearless now) fights a 15 man squad of space marines. The orks kill 3 space marines, the marines kill 10 orks. The orks must then take 7 additional armor saves at the end of CC (killing about 6 additional orks).

I think your examples are a bit far fetched Murphy, if you work these out as averages I'm sure you would find that almost definately the 32 Orks in the 2nd example would win the combat given that they are very likely to have the hidden power claw, as any good ork player would have, in that unit. And if those SM units are DA they will be prolly max 10 SMs, unless of course you charged two units at once and I don't even know if you can still do that in 5th ed

Hidden power claw no longer counts... Wounds are allocated across the defender, so there's a good chance of killing them off before they can strike.
Which makes me a very happy player

Algeroth wrote:Hidden power claw no longer counts... Wounds are allocated across the defender, so there's a good chance of killing them off before they can strike.
Which makes me a very happy player

yes, me too, them Claws often bring down my Grinders. but still the examples seem incorrect/unlikely.

Algeroth wrote:Hidden power claw no longer counts... Wounds are allocated across the defender, so there's a good chance of killing them off before they can strike.

umm... wouldnt you have to do at least as many wounds as there are models in the unit, and hope the Ork player fails his Save?
(thats going to be even harder than ToB!)

~ Tim

depends... With my Space Wolves in first Assault I could do a possible 15x3 attacks. So I still reckon I'm a very happy player
Besides when you read the rule on it, you'll see that whole units are in contact and therefore cant be hidden at the back like before.
And it would still be possible with a Codex Tac Unit to do enough hits to force a save from Mr PowerClaw.

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote: umm... wouldnt you have to do at least as many wounds as there are models in the unit, and hope the Ork player fails his Save? (thats going to be even harder than ToB!) ~ Tim

I believe that is correct. Reading the Warseer threads, the owning player would have to allocate 1 wound to each model before allocating a second wound. So if 32 orks suffer 30 wounds, the hidden power claw will still be able to "dodge the bullet"
If, however, 20 orks suffer 24 wounds, each model would suffer 1 wound, the owning player would then allocate the other 4 wounds to any 4 models. I think this is correct, but it is based on rumors and reading other posts. I don't have the 5th ed rules yet and I have no store near me.(So I can't pop in and read a rulebook ).

just a little sidenote on your Ork Powerklaw theories: he has two wounds, so you have to do a hell of a lot of wounds in those cases to bring him down

Ranhothep wrote:just a little sidenote on your Ork Powerklaw theories: he has two wounds, so you have to do a hell of a lot of wounds in those cases to bring him down

64 wounding hits (and he would have to fail both saves). *gulp*

~ Tim