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Dice rolling - could this idea work?

For discussing new rules and changes to the current rules, such as new homebrew datasheets for Apocalypse

Dice rolling - could this idea work?

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:15 pm

Hey all :)

an idea occured to me last night, and i thought i would share (just for fun) -
if someone is willing to give this a try with their friends, and tell us how it went, that would be great (unfortunately im a bit too busy at present).

this method should both speed up the game and make things more reliable, taking away a lot of the "luck factor". heres how it works:

instead of rolling dice, you simply assume a proportion of passes/failures, based on the probablities involved, as much as possible. after you divide up the dice as best you can, you roll any 'remainder' as normal.

thats sounds more complicated that it is, so here are some examples:

1A: 10 IG fire their Lasguns at a target within 12". normally you would roll 20 dice, hitting on a 4+ (1/2). instead, you just say that 10 hits are scored automatically (with 10 misses), and move on to the next step (see 1B).

1B: 10 Lasgun hits are scored against Terminators. normally you would roll 10 dice, wounding on a 5+ (1/3). instead, you say that 3 wounds are scored automatically (with 6 misses), and then roll to wound with the remaining 1 dice.

2A: 8 Marines fire their Bolters at a target over 12" away. normally you would roll 8 dice hitting on a 3+ (2/3). instead, you say that 4 hits are scored automatically (with 2 misses), and then roll to hit with remaining 2 dice.

'small' rolls would still happen as normal, for example, a single Lascannon shot, or a single Save etc (you dont just take the average). big batch rolls however are speeded up and averaged out.

what do you think? how does that sound?

(bear in mind im not suggesting this as a serious change to the proper rules, just as a "for fun" method of speeding up games - prehaps for Apoc?)

do you think it would be good for quickly playtesting a new unit build (i.e. when you only have a few games to try something out, and dont want your findings to be too random)?

cheers :)

~ Tim
Last edited by LordMalekTheRedKnight on Sat Mar 29, 2008 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby killmaimburn » Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:38 pm

Because of my anti probability dice I have suggested this to the others here a few times. Everyone has a bell curve allocation of dice to use up, or similar variants.
However Mr6 who never rolls less than a 3 was unimpressed.
And I think ljundhammer just thought I was trying to over complicate things again.
2/3rds of my dice are a 1 or a 2(always for ever and ever). I would suddenly win most games if the first 20 dice i rolled with meq weren't misses. And suddenly everyone would notice that my lists are the most incredible power gamey lists only held in check by incredible bad luck (how I learnt to compensate and not hate the dice).
As you say it may be usefull on a mathhammer side for quickly testing multiple outlays of units but the game requires tactics(inc a good list and the ability to guage distances) and dice so that games vary some (the unpredicable element is a key component of the fun.. never saw that happening, how did a guard just bring down a terminator etc etc).
Some powergamers already create lists where as few dice as possible are required as no dice is better than real dice 9 times out of 10 :lol:
Basically (as someone with awful luck) I accept that luck is a key component of an enjoyable game and my group have already said they wouldn't accept a suggestion like this (although ljundhammer did suggest using a laptop with an diceroller program so that we could find out if my statistical anomoly translates over to P.C.s too :D )
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Postby fyrebyrd » Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:08 pm

I think that the idea work really well with Apoc. I would be a defender of the 'luck' when it comes to normal games tho. I can't tell you how many times I saved way above average. That also is IMO the place where stories come from.
For example this one(maybe not on subject but was funny as heck)
I was playing as orks(BA proxied as orks LOL) and a friend of mine was using 'nids. His one fex was hungry for grots as it shot up my big gunz squad and in two turns tore up all of the gunz(was lucky and hit only the guns), hence dropping my zzap gun battery to a squad of 12 weaponless grots and a single Runtherd with a grot prod. Well, the grots got mad cause they lost their guns and charged towards the fex in front of them. Once the grots & herder got to it, it took three full turns of the Grot prod of 'fex doom to kill the 'fex. 'One prod to rule them all'.

It was funny because the math of it wouldn't have let the fex fail all the saves from the wounds that got thru from the herder.

I think that maybe your idea Tim would work better/worse based specifically on which army you use. As KMB said everyone's dice success is different(bell curve). I do agree with the fact of using the statistics to test new units, as the probability percentages are way better to use than the more anomalous dice rolling.
Last edited by fyrebyrd on Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby timewizard » Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:48 pm

I think it would work and take the game to a different level. Specifically, there would be more strategy involved by reducing the luck element.
You now have the ability to anticipate a kill ratio prior to an attack, so by bringing another unit (or 2 or 3) into the attack, you can put the odds in your favor. Almost make the surprise attack possible in 40K (as in, surprise! I brought 5 units to you 2 unit fight!)
It is definately worth a try and some serious play testing.

edited for content
Last edited by timewizard on Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Culven » Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:51 pm

I like the idea for playtesting units to ensure they are statistically balanced, but for a normal game, I prefer the randomness of dice rolls. I like to think of them as the effect of minor occourances in the story of the game (guns jamming, newbie not aiming, et cetera). Also, my new Tzeentch army is based on the idea that the outcome of the battle it ultimately up to Lord Tzeentch. Besides, then I can claim that my victory simply wasn't meant to be, rather than being simply due to my inept tactical leadership. ;)
Last edited by Culven on Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby mattjgilbert » Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:45 am

Nice idea and it could work. I wonder if it's possible to reduce the whole hit/wound/save mechanic to a single lookup table (challenge now open for people to invent this...). That would speed things up :)

I guess it falls down if people cannot do math in their heads and it works out slower that just rolling dice!
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