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Genestealer Cult - 5th ed Update (Combat Patrol)

For discussing new rules and changes to the current rules, such as new homebrew datasheets for Apocalypse

Postby timewizard » Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:01 pm

Hello all Genestealer Cultists!
I know you all have enough to do and read up on before the meetup, but I happened upon this on the BOLS site. If you have already seen and downloaded it, disregard.
http://belloflostsouls.blogspot.com/200 ... t-v20.html
"I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire." - Erwin Rommel
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:22 pm

ooh, i hadnt seen the updated version - i am downloading it now. :D

cheers mate :)

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Postby timewizard » Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:54 pm

Glad to help out! :)
"I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire." - Erwin Rommel
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Postby ruffian4 » Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:15 pm

Oi!
Prestidgitator of time!!
Stop encouraging him!!!
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:31 pm

heh. dont worry, while i will read the BOLS list, i wont be using it (it isnt designed to do what i want my list to do, and i have my own interpretation of the fluff to adhere to anyway). :P

im pretty happy with my list actually - im looking forward to seeing it in action (although i need to read up the 5th ed Vehicle Rules so i can use my Chimera to give you some target practice...).

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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:41 am

following the playtest game (Ruffian using the Cult vs me with Ash Wastes Defenders IG), i have added to the Jinx rule to make it work under 5th ed better. IMO so far nothing else needs to be changed (neither for compatibility or balance reasons), so consider this the 5th ed list (for now):

Code: Select all
Genestealer Magus - Force Commander - 80 pts

WS    BS    S    T    W    I    A    Ld    Sv
3     3    3    3    2    4   1(2)  10  5+/3+Inv

Unit Type: Infantry
Unit Size: 1 Model
Weapons: Laspistol, Force Weapon (Staff)
Special Rules:
- Independant Character
- Fearless
- Psyker
- Psychic Power - "Jinx": Requires a successful Psychic Test, cast instead of shooting, targets any enemy unit that has at least one model within Range (24") and LOS. An affected unit must re-roll all successful 'to-hit' rolls in its following Shooting Phase (if a weapon uses the Scatter & distance dice, the Cult player can choose whether or not the dice are re-rolled, regardless of the first result). Does not affect who the Magus can charge, and if he is joined to a unit, they are not restricted to shooting/charging the same unit he targets with the power (i.e. it does not work like shooting).
- Psychic Shield: The Magus has 3+ Invulnerable Save, and the Eternal Warrior USR.
- Hive Beacon: All friendly units that have at least one model within 12" of the Magus may use his Ld for any Leadership tests while he is alive. If the Magus is removed from play, each friendly unit within 12" must pass an immediate Pinning Test or Go To Ground.


Brood Brothers Squad - 60 pts

WS    BS    S    T    W    I    A    Ld    Sv
2     2    3    3    1    4    1     5    6+

Unit Type: Infantry
Unit Size: 10 Models
Weapons: Lasguns/Autoguns. In addition, 1 model has a Flamer and 1 has a Heavy Stubber (R24", S4, AP6, Assault 3).
Special Rules:
- Home Turf: The unit has the Scouts and Move Through Cover USRs. If the Magus is joined to the unit, these rules are NOT lost. Note however that units with this rule are not entitled to make Outflanking moves.


Brood Brothers Anti-tank Squad - 40 pts

WS    BS    S    T    W    I    A    Ld    Sv
2     2    3    3    1    4    1     5    6+

Unit Type: Infantry
Unit Size: 6 Models
Weapons: Lasguns/Autoguns, Krak Grenades. In addition, 3 models have Rocket Launchers (R24", S8, AP3, Assault 1).
Special Rules:
- Home Turf (see above)


Genestealer Hybrid Brood - 100 pts

WS    BS    S    T    W    I    A    Ld    Sv
3     2    4    3    1    4   1(2)   8    5+

Unit Type: Infantry
Unit Size: 10 Models
Weapons: Laspistols/Autopistols, Close Combat Weapons, Frag Grenades. In addition, 5 models have Rending Claws.
Special Rules:
- Fleet
- Home Turf (see above)


Genestealer Purestrain Brood - 120 pts

WS    BS    S    T    W    I    A    Ld    Sv
6     0    4    4    1    6   2(3)  10    5+

Unit Type: Infantry
Unit Size: 6 Models
Weapons: Rending Claws, Scything Talons
Special Rules:
- Fleet
- Move Through Cover
- Hidden Threat: The Purestrain Brood MUST be placed in Reserve during Deployment, and enter play using the Deep Strike rules. Once they arrive, they receive a 5+ Cover Save (which can be improved by Going To Ground as normal), even in the open, until the start of the following Cult turn. This Cover Save is immediately lost if the brood decides to Run in its Shooting Phase.

il post a batrep later - cheers :)

~ Tim
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Postby ruffian4 » Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:38 pm

I liked the list, Tim. It worked well!!!

Re-re-rolls (!) and jinx.
Considering p2, re-rolls, it states that "no single dice may be re-rolled more than once, regardless of the source of the re-roll."

Do you think it's ok to force a re-roll on a re-roll in this manner or not?

Ie, twin-linked whatevers or blast scattering with guide for eg.
If so, maybe the wording could look something like "re-roll the final result?"

If not, twin-linked/guide defeats jinx?
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:52 pm

ruffian4 wrote:I liked the list, Tim. It worked well!!!

cheers mate :D

ruffian4 wrote:Re-re-rolls (!) and jinx.
Do you think it's ok to force a re-roll on a re-roll in this manner or not?

they would cancel eachother out:

first roll
= hit = re-roll (Jinx)
= miss = re-roll (Guide/Twin-linked/etc)

so whatever happens, the first roll will be re-rolled, and then cannot be re-rolled again, so it all comes down to the second roll (which means we may as well skip the first roll and just roll the dice with no re-rolls either way).

makes sense that more reliable weapons (or those that fire extra shots to increase the chance of hitting) should be better than normal weapons when Jinxed. it also makes sense that psychic powers like Guide should be able to help, by cancelling out the effect of the Magus' power.

for weapons that scatter and have to-hit re-rolls, it doesnt matter which player wants to re-roll the dice - they will just be re-rolled (although the Cult player wont be able to force the firing player to keep the first roll, and vice versa). the second result stands though either way (cant re-roll a re-roll).

make sense? :)

cheers

~ Tim
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Postby WolflordHavoc » Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:11 pm

I would simplify it to "any hits are rerolled".

It therefore does not matter 'how' the 'hits' were achieved in the first place (ie were rerolled misses etc) simply reroll any that do ultimately hit.

The bonus that twin linked weapons or sharpshooter gives is a potentially greater number of hits or a chance of getting more hits. Jinx represents that some of the guns have not worked that turn.

Or how about changing the rule to 'any to hit roll of a 6 is a miss?'

Discuss
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:28 pm

WolflordHavoc wrote:It therefore does not matter 'how' the 'hits' were achieved in the first place (ie were rerolled misses etc) simply reroll any that do ultimately hit.

that breaks a core rule though (i.e. you cannot re-roll a re-roll). :?

i think its probably best to get the list to work within the normal game rules...

WolflordHavoc wrote:Or how about changing the rule to 'any to hit roll of a 6 is a miss?'

problem then is what happens with weapons that dont use a to-hit roll (like Blasts)?

OK, how about making it affect individual weapons? for example, roll a D6 for each weapon the firing unit intends to use: on a 1-3 the weapon jams or fires wide, and automatically misses, on a 4+ it is used as normal.

that way, it can affect Template weapons (that dont roll any dice to hit), Blasts (which dont use to-hit rolls), and there is no confusion over "re-rolling a re-roll"/re-rolls cancelling out.

thoughts? :?:

cheers :)

~ Tim
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Postby mattjgilbert » Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:36 pm

If you are going to 4+ things... just auto-grant the target unit a cover save of 4+. Very 5th ed!

So Jinx = A unit suffering from Jinx always treats targets it shoots at as being in cover (with a 4+ save) unless the target already has a better cover save). This save is even permitted for weapons which would normally ignore cover saves.

Another option = reduce BS by 1 for the unit. That way you roll less dice and the chance of hitting is still reduced by the jinx. This is the simplest solution I think.
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:59 pm

mattjgilbert wrote:If you are going to 4+ things... just auto-grant the target unit a cover save of 4+. Very 5th ed!

a few problems:
- it wouldnt affect Templates
- it would be too much like Conceal
- there is plenty of cover as it is (and Brood Brothers to use as human shields should the Purestrains/Hybrids need to move into the open)

mattjgilbert wrote:This save is even permitted for weapons which would normally ignore cover saves.

hmm... so its a Cover Save that you only ever need when in the open, behind a hedge (etc) or when the enemy ignores Cover Saves?

although weird things can happen due to the Cover mechanics. for example, if a Missile Launcher jams then it shouldnt score any hits at all but if you just give the wounded models a 4+ Cover Save, some can pass while others can fail.

mattjgilbert wrote:Another option = reduce BS by 1 for the unit. That way you roll less dice and the chance of hitting is still reduced by the jinx. This is the simplest solution I think.

still wouldnt affect Flamers etc (or Barrage weapons that have no LOS), as they dont use BS.

il keep thinking on it. :)

cheers

~ Tim
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Postby mattjgilbert » Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:15 pm

Do you have any barrage weapons in your force?
Flamers and blast weapons could halve the number of hits (rounding down). I think I like this the best so far - the jinxed unit will (likely) cause less hits and no extra dice are rolled to figure that out.


More options (although not as good I think).

The target always gets a save no matter the AP or special rules of the weapon (gets a 6+ of doesn't have one)

or

Target models get a 6+ dodge save which they can take should any normal save attempt fail.


hmmm... first one is a little biased towards those with poor armour saves to start with.

The second doesn't care what your first save was (or even if you had one). It's rolling more dice though again...
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Postby ruffian4 » Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:30 pm

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:they would cancel eachother out:

first roll
= hit = re-roll (Jinx)
= miss = re-roll (Guide/Twin-linked/etc)

yES, BUT THE THING IS, TWIN-LINKED CAN TURN A MISS INTO A HIT (CAPS LOCK, SORRY, IT JAMS :( ) AND THE RULE states you re-roll hits.

Though I appreciate that this is not necessarily for the gaming world at large (it's your homebrew), this looks like one of those instances that fall into that black hole of "if they didn't mean it like that, why did they write it like that?"

My question was one of rai, I suppose. Maybe a reminder that jinx will not allow re-rolls to be re-rolled is sufficient (assuming all of a firers dice should be rolled before jinx takes effect)?
Last edited by ruffian4 on Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:21 pm

ruffian4 wrote:yES, BUT THE THING IS, TWIN-LINKED CAN TURN A MISS INTO A HIT (CAPS LOCK, SORRY, IT JAMS :( ) AND THE RULE states you re-roll hits.

yes, but without stating that the core rule "no re-rolling a re-roll" is ignored. ;)

ruffian4 wrote:My question was one of rai, I suppose. Maybe a reminder that jinx will not allow re-rolls to be re-rolled is sufficient

yeah i can put that in, no problem. :)

mattjgilbert wrote:Do you have any barrage weapons in your force?

the Cult doesnt, but their opponents will (Ash Nomads will have a Mortar, plus they may get used in pick-up games against random opponents as well).

mattjgilbert wrote:Flamers and blast weapons could halve the number of hits (rounding down). I think I like this the best so far - the jinxed unit will (likely) cause less hits and no extra dice are rolled to figure that out.

ooh i like that!

cheers guys :D

~ Tim
p.s. one idea i did have was giving all the weapons in the affected unit the Gets Hot rule (and if any weapons would already Get Hot, then they would have to re-roll successful Gets Hot saves against them)...
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