Hey all

for some time now ive been mulling over some ideas that could make Vehicles more realistic/fluffy in terms of the equipment they carry as standard, as well as exploring new Vehicle Upgrades. im not intending on playtesting them: they are more of an exercise in creativity - a "what if". Ive not worried about points costs, although game balance and playability were a considered.

ive recently completed the rules so i thought i would share them, before 5th Edition comes out and invalidates most of them.

first off, here are the items i believe Imperial Vehicles should come with as standard.

Standard Imperial Vehicle Upgrades:

- Targeter
- Smoke Launchers OR Frag Launchers*
- Searchlight
- Auspex (Passangers and Crew)
- Improved Comms (Command Squad/HQ Transports only)
plus (based on the army):
- IG (Transports): Vox Caster, Medi-pack
- SM/GK: Teleport Homer
- AdMech: Signum (Passangers or Crew), Holy Icon

* Walkers have the option of exchanging their Smoke Launchers for Frag Launchers (One use per game, the Walker counts as being equipped with Frag Grenades when charging models in cover).

ive also come up with some hypothetical Adeptus Mechanicus Vehicle Upgrades (optional extras in addition to the standard equipment listed above and the Vehicle Upgrades in C: IG). Ive assumed that the AdMech would use Vehicles similar (if not identical) to those listed in C: IG, if they had their own Codex.

Adeptus Mechanicus Vehicle Upgrades:
(upgrades with a * cannot be taken by Walkers)

- (All C:IG Vehicle Upgrade Options)
- Night Vision
- Tanglefield Generator*
- Techpriest Crew*
- Servitor Gunners
- POTMS*
- Blessed Hull*
- Ablative Armour OR Ceramite Armour*
- Electro Hull (not Transports or Open Topped)*
- Frag Defenders (not Open Topped)*
- Advanced Targeting Systems
- Tech Cult Choir*

Night Vision
Night vision camers along with filters added to the vehicle's targeters and firing points allow make the enemy easier to spot when fighting in darkness.
The Vehicle's Crew and any Passangers onboard benefit from the Night Vision USR.

Tanglefield Generator
When the Tanglefield Generator is discharged anyone attempting to approach the vehicle will feel like they are walking across tripwires, and will find it difficult to stay on their feet, buying the crew more time.
(one use per game)
Can only be used during your Opponent's Assault Phase, once a charge has been declared on the Vehicle. Each unit trying to charge the Vehicle that turn moves as if in Difficult Terrain. This can cause charges against the Vehicle to fail if they cannot reach the Vehicle.

Techpriest Crew
The vehicle is crewed by a Techpriest Enginseer who can carry out emergency repairs from within its armoured hull.
If the Vehicle has suffered an Immobilised or Armament Destroyed result, the Techpriest can attempt to repair it. Roll 1 D6 at the end of the AdMech Movement Phase: on a 6, one of these defects (chose by the owning player) is fixed.
In order to attempt a repair, the Crew must not be Stunned, and the Vehicle may not Move that turn (unless it has and uses the POTMS upgrade to do so).

Servitor Gunners
The gunners have been replaced by hardwired mono-task Servitors, improving the vehicle's accuracy.
The Vehicle has a BS of 4 (Ordnance is unaffected).

Ablative Armour
An extra layer of armour is added to the vehicle, that breaks away to absorb light damage.
(one use per game)
The first time your opponet rolls on the Glancing hit table for this vehicle, treat the result as Crew Shaken instead. After this, the Ablative Armour is destroyed and cannot be used again this game.
Penetrating hits and Ordnance Penetrating hits roll as normal, destroying Ablative Armour in the process.

Ceramite Armour
The vehicle's hull is coated with a layer of ceramite to protect it from extreme heat.
Melta Weapons do not get their +D6 Penetration Bonus.
Melta Bombs only roll 1D6 towards Penetration, instead of the usual 2D6.
May not be combined with Electro Hull.

Electro Hull
The hull of the vehicle is given a powerful electric charge to repell would-be attackers.
(one use per game)
This ability is used the first time the Vehicle is charged, after moving chargers but before resolving attacks (once this ability has been used the hull is discharged so this upgrade canot be used again).
All enemy models Engaged with the Vehicle must take Armour (or Inv) Saves. Models that pass may attack as normal - models that fail their save must decide whether to take an unsaved wound and then attack (if they are still alive) or not attack that turn (without taking damage).
May not be combined with Ceramite Armour.

Frag Defenders
Explosive chargers fitted to the hull of the vehicle fire shrapnel into the enemy when it is attacked.
(one use per game)
Used before the enemy make attacks against the Vehicle in any one Assault Phase.
Each unit attacking the Vehicle takes a number of automatic hits equal to the number of its models that are Engaged with the Vehicle.
Resolve damage following the Shooting rules and the profile of a Frag Grenade (S3, AP6, Blast), removing casualties from the models Engaged with the Vehicle only (although not necessarily within LOS).

Advanced Targeting Systems
Specialised targeting subroutines help the vehicle's gunners find the weak points in enemy war machines.
The Vehicle's Crew have the Tank Hunters USR.

Tech Cult Choir
Cultists surround the Vehicle, chanting and praying to its Machine Spirits. When the vehicle comes under fire members of the Choir will sacrifice themselves, acting as human shields.
(D3+3 Cultists)
If a Penetrating Hit is scored against the Vehicle while it is in the open, make an Obscured Target roll for the cultists. If successfully the hit is downgraded to Glancing and one model is removed from the Choir as a casualty. Once all the cultists have been removed, this ability is lost.
The cultist models cannot be shot or charged etc - they have no statline, merely acting as markers ingame. However, if the vehicle is charged, it is assumed the choir is cut down by the enemy as they advance, and they are all removed from play. The Choir has no effect once the Vehicle has been destroyed.

++++++++++++

so, what do you think?

cheers

~ Tim

you've basically movie marined rhinos (thats not a bad thing)

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:Frag Defenders

Resolve damage following the Shooting rules and the profile of a Frag Grenade (S3, AP6, Blast), removing casualties from the models Engaged with the Vehicle only (although not necessarily within LOS).

This is very like the old tzeentch upgrade coruscating warp fire, might I suggest for fun.. that they act more like depth charges and just fall off the vehicle in all directions (including a hit to the rear at str 4)...It could then create some very funny things to do with tank shock (like the old khorne upgrade where tank shock actually hurt)... you could make this bit so much more...a whole:
"comander we're losing"
"quick send in jimmy in his rhino, poor jimmy"

killmaimburn wrote:you've basically movie marined rhinos (thats not a bad thing)

hehe. thanks

killmaimburn wrote:This is very like the old tzeentch upgrade coruscating warp fire,

its actually based on the old 2nd ed Vehicle Upgrade of the same name (IIRC), from Dark Millenium.

killmaimburn wrote:might I suggest for fun.. that they act more like depth charges and just fall off the vehicle in all directions (including a hit to the rear at str 4)

the reason i used S3 Frags is that the Vehicle itself would be immune (if you were strapping anti-personal charges to the outside of your tank wouldnt you make sure they couldnt damage it? ).

the fact its a Blast should be fun against Swarms (e.g. Scarabs).

killmaimburn wrote:...It could then create some very funny things to do with tank shock (like the old khorne upgrade where tank shock actually hurt).

i was trying to work out what to do Re: Tank Shock (vs. Frag Defenders/Electro hull). in the end i decided to gloss over it, and emphasise the defensive battle style through its ommission. (thats my excuse and im sticking to it ).

i suppose said upgrades could still function (would a DoG model be forced to take the unsaved wound from Electro Hull? and would it only work if he chose to make a CC type attack, rather than a ranged one? would only the DoG model be hit by the Frag Defenders?...)

cheers for reading

(my person faves are the Tanglefield Generator - based on the Tanglefoot Grenades of 2nd ed crossed with the EMP in Matrix, and the Choir, which i think is a brilliant image)

~ Tim

"The emperor is great and good, the emperor is wonder...BOOM."

"Dai, dai, are you alright boy?"

"It's Dai, he's dead is Dai!"

"No we cannot die! Gargle my brothers, the sacred unguents and let us sing even unto the heavens that we may protect this blessed trojan recovery vehicle from the outrages of the heretical scum!"

"Uh hum...after 4, 1, 2, 3, 4."

"Oh the emperor is great, the emperor is...dakka dakka dakka."

"Glynn, no not glynn, we have no baritones left now. What do we do?"

"Emperor protect, the berzerkers...they are charging...!"

"Boycemax, don't worry, nor you Jonestom. For our trojan is protected by frag defenders!"

"Why there's lovely...but wait a mo...BOOM."

Admech male voice choir...they keep a welcome by the tankside.

just realised i hadnt updated these rules for 5th ed. here goes...

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:Adeptus Mechanicus Vehicle Upgrades:

Ablative Armour
An extra layer of armour is added to the vehicle, that breaks away to absorb light damage.
(one use per game)
The first time your opponet scores a Glancing hit on this vehicle, treat the result as Crew Shaken instead or rolling on the damage table. After this, the Ablative Armour is destroyed and cannot be used again this game.
Penetrating hits roll as normal, destroying Ablative Armour in the process.

Tech Cult Choir
Cultists surround the Vehicle, chanting and praying to its Machine Spirits. When the vehicle comes under fire members of the Choir will sacrifice themselves, acting as human shields.
(D3+3 Cultists)
The Vehicle counts as an Obscured Target, and receives a 4+ Cover Save from the cultists. Each time this save is passed, one model is removed from the Choir as a casualty. Once all the cultists have been removed, this ability is lost.
The cultist models cannot be shot or charged etc - they have no statline, merely acting as markers ingame. However, if the vehicle is charged, it is assumed the choir is cut down by the enemy as they advance, and they are all removed from play. The Choir has no effect once the Vehicle has been destroyed.

that just leaves...

Frag Defenders
Explosive chargers fitted to the hull of the vehicle fire shrapnel into the enemy when it is attacked.
(one use per game)
Used before the enemy make attacks against the Vehicle in any one Assault Phase.
Each unit attacking the Vehicle takes a number of automatic hits equal to the number of its models that are Engaged with the Vehicle.
Resolve damage following the Shooting rules and the profile of a Frag Grenade (S3, AP6, Blast), removing casualties from the models Engaged with the Vehicle only (although not necessarily within LOS).

should that last part (in bold) be removed in 5th ed (now that CC casualties dont have to be Engaged?) if so, should it cause a number of hits equal to the number of models in the whole unit to compensate?

so, what do you think?

cheers

~ Tim

I was thinking that you should lose a choir member every time you attempted the save but actually I think it's fine the way it is.

On the Frag Defenders, do you mean in b2b contact or engaged? Also, it's confusing how it works. Do you get a blast template for each engaged model? Or... if the number of hits is already calculated, why do you then need a blast template? Would the blast template scatter? LOS... from what point?
Needs a rethink that one.

mattjgilbert wrote:I was thinking that you should lose a choir member every time you attempted the save but actually I think it's fine the way it is.

yeah, i saw it as whenever you fail the save the enemy miss the choir and hit the tank, but whenever you pass it the choir takes a hit. i know sometimes it would be possible to hit a choir member and pass straight through to hit the tank anyway, but at the same time we dont work out whether choir members hit survive (some might), so i think it cancels out.

for models, i was thinking of using WHFB Empire Flagellants and/or WHFB Skaven Plaguemonks (claws, tails and snouts removed so the look like hunched humans).

mattjgilbert wrote:On the Frag Defenders, do you mean in b2b contact or engaged?

Engaged - i.e. every model that could hit the vehicle.

mattjgilbert wrote:Also, it's confusing how it works. Do you get a blast template for each engaged model? Or... if the number of hits is already calculated, why do you then need a blast template? Would the blast template scatter? LOS... from what point?
Needs a rethink that one.

there is no Blast Marker - the number of hits are calculated without needing one (in fact it doesnt even get a statline until after the number of hits has been worked out). the hits just count as being Blast hits for the purposes of VtB etc.
(IMO this approach should be taken with a number of things that are explosions which dont use a Blast Marker, e.g. when a Vehicle explodes)

hope that clarifies.

what do you think about which models can be hit/killed? originally the idea was that number of hits = number of models that can hit the vehicle, and that casualties must come from those models (to reduce the number that get to attack the Vehicle). this was the way normal combat worked too. however, in 5th ed models that arent Engaged can be removed in order to keep attacking models alive (you cant just 'clear the kill zone' to keep yourself from being attacked anymore). im thinking Frag Defenders should be nerfed in line with this change, for consistency's sake. this would make it pretty useless against bigger units, as the more distant unengaged models could take the damage and leave the closer ones to attack, although this could make sense if you imagine such units swarming allover the tank and continuing to advance even after the Frags are fired.

thoughts?

cheers

~ Tim

How about when a model attacks the vehicle it takes a hit back at the same initiative (so similtaneously)? The hit/wound is resolved against that model only and not allocated like "normal".

Or... you take leaf out of Telion's book and have the player owning the vehicle allocate the hits.

mattjgilbert wrote:How about when a model attacks the vehicle it takes a hit back at the same initiative (so similtaneously)?

that would be more like Electro Hull (which doesnt affect a model until it tries to hit the vehicle). Frag Defenders are fired all at once in one big blast (before attackers can strike), so splitting the damage over several Init steps wouldnt make sense.

mattjgilbert wrote:Or... you take leaf out of Telion's book and have the player owning the vehicle allocate the hits.

its supposed to be indiscrimate.

hitting the models closest to the vehicle (those Engaged) would make sense, although having the attacking player allocate wounds to models further back (to represent attackers stepping over their dead comrades to take their place) is more in keeping with 5th ed.

cheers

~ tim

If it's indiscriminate it should affect ALL models in b2b contact, friend or foe.

mattjgilbert wrote:If it's indiscriminate it should affect ALL models in b2b contact, friend or foe.

hitting friend and foe isnt something i have a problem with.

thing is, if it just kills models in B2B then that could still leave engaged models who are able to hit it. and if they are close enough to hit it then they should be close enough to get shrapnel land on them.

problem is that Engaged depends on base width, so isnt a set distance (i cant jus say "every model within 3" is hit" because if the attackers are on 40mm bases then engaged models can be more than 3" away, and if they are on 60mm bases then they can be more than 4" away, etc).

i think "Engaged" is best for this, but then, that prevents friendly models being hit (although maybe they know it is about to happen so duck for cover?). hmm...

do you agree that who can be removed should follow the theme of 5th ed? (a nerf compared to how it worked in 4th)

cheers

~ Tim

Yeah but the problem comes when combining "friend or foe (indiscriminate) with "engaged models". The latter is only enemy models which could easily be mixed up (and behind) friendly models....

...oh you saw that too (shouldn't start typing until I read ALL the post...)

Yes you should follow 5th ed rules as much as possible.

mattjgilbert wrote:Yeah but the problem comes when combining "friend or foe (indiscriminate) with "engaged models". The latter is only enemy models which could easily be mixed up (and behind) friendly models....

OK, what if i keep it to Engaged models, but say it cant be used if any friendly models are in B2B with the Vehicle? (a bit like how you cant cover your own models with Blast Markers/Templates)

mattjgilbert wrote:Yes you should follow 5th ed rules as much as possible.

OK, so casualties can come from models that arent Engaged.

cheers

~ Tim

Yes - both those seem to work together

mattjgilbert wrote:Yes - both those seem to work together

OK cool. so we have:

Frag Defenders
Explosive chargers fitted to the hull of the vehicle fire shrapnel into the enemy when it is attacked.
(one use per game)
Used before the enemy make attacks against the Vehicle in any one Assault Phase. Note however that Frag Defenders cannot be used if there are any friendly models in base contact with the Vehicle.
Each unit attacking the Vehicle takes a number of automatic hits equal to the number of its models that are Engaged with the Vehicle.
Hits are resolved at S3 AP6 following the Shooting rules. If any attackers have the Vulnerable to Blasts/Templates USR, treat any wounds as being caused by a Blast weapon for this purpose. As usual, casualties can be removed from anywhere in the unit.

hows that?

cheers

~ Tim