During our last few games me and Al have been debating what happens in a couple on situations. The first is assaulting where moveable trees are in the path to the target.
Here's an example. You take a difficult terrain test to assault out of a wood. You roll a 5. The direct route through the tree is 5 " so you would be able to assault if u moved the tree. But if you were to go around the tree it wouldn't be enough. Do you move the tree and leave it off till u can replace it?
Next is assaulting in ruins. A model with it's base right on the edge of the first level is going to be assaulted. The model assaulting is 3" away from the wall below. He rolls a 6. So can he assault. He would move forward 3" and then up 3". Even though he would be stood in mid air has the assault criteria been met so that it can continue?

We always remove the tree and then put it back in the same place as soon as is possible.

Isn't that covered in the ruins section?

Yes it is matt, and p14
"Note that as part of their move through difficult terrain, models may move through walls, closed doors and
windows, and all sort of similarly solid obstacles, unless the players have agreed that a certain wall or obstacle
is impassable."
You'd have to clearly make an exception that a wall was impassible to not walk through it by default IMO.

The bit that bugs me is the "everyone uses cities of death scenery" rules "assumption" that all ruins ,to floor 1, difference is 3"s from movement, even if you have the old ruins which are only 1" high etc..

He must have really been beating you bad if you had to argue over conceptual trees

Baragash wrote: the tree is only conceptual.

Kapow!!!

KInG wrote: Do you move the tree and leave it off till u can replace it?

Re: assaulting out of a wood, BRB page 13 3rd paragraph under 'Area Terrain', "When moving models into this area, you may temporarily remove the rocks, trees, etc. (if they are not glued in place!) to make moving the models easier."

KInG wrote:Next is assaulting in ruins. A model with it's base right on the edge of the first level is going to be assaulted. The model assaulting is 3" away from the wall below. He rolls a 6. So can he assault. He would move forward 3" and then up 3". Even though he would be stood in mid air has the assault criteria been met so that it can continue?

To assault in a ruin, you still have to get into base contact with the first enemy model. If the enemy is on the first level, and you are 3" away from the outside wall, a roll of 6 will bring you to the wall, and then up 3" which might not get you into base contact. Look at the second paragraph under 'Ruins And Assaults' on page 85. If it is impossible to move assaulting models into base to base contact, because the ruin is unstable or the space on a level is limited, it is ok to place the model as close as possible including a level above or below the model.
This is of course if you feel that the model would have gotten into base contact int the first place. It is one thing to say the model was able to move onto the first level, but was unable to be physically placde there. If the model moved 3" to the outside wall and a 3" vertical move would bring it up to the first level but be hovering in mid-air, I would say that it did not get into base contact. If the model was less than 3" from the wall and the 6" move would then get it up to the first level and onto it, then it could be placed under the model on the first level and could assault as per the rule on page 85.
I hope this didn't confuse it even more!

Ok, ill now add to this, the situation is this,

A model on a large base, let's say a dreadnought charges a unit in a ruin the closest model of which is on the 1st level up about 2.5 inches away plus 3 inch to.

I roll a 6 for my assault distance and move the model the 2.5 inch to the wall and 3 inch up, but where I stop I can't place the model because the centre of gravity makes it fall off the level, if I support the model on the level the front of the dreads base is in base to base with the closest model so I have reached the unit I wished to assault but can't level the dread 1/3 on 2/3 off the level.

Am I in combat.

Quick verdict yes or no?

Thanks

Yes, you are in combat.
GW gives its typical flip flop rules here.
Page 83 first paragraph says which models can move on the upper floor of a ruin, then says but only if they can physically be placed there.
Page 85 last paragraph says space could be limited making it impossible to move the models into base to base, so in those cases it is okay to place the other model a level above or below, you just have to make it clear to your opponent that the models are in base to base.

Are you two still pretending to fight?

It's so sweet.

Bet you'll be shagging soon...

Lol. My soul grinder was hanging off ruins in previous games I've had. Think that was actually at an AoS game IIRC.
Anyways, part 1 of my question; moving the trees. Somewhere in the rulebook we read that the trees must go back at the end of the movement phase. Well Al did. Did he read that bit wrong?
The second bit, I agree with TWs 1st post. It is one thing to be able to get into b2b via Ur allowed roll on the dice. But if you are more out than in, or even all out, of the building, how can you be on the level, nevermind in the ruin?

Talking about that soul grinder in a ruin what would u say if it scaled the outer walls of the ruin to show it's approximate position inside the ruin ?

Maybe they want you to be able to place them in the movement phase but are being generous with the assault phase?

Therefore can the soul grinder only go on the ground floor of the ruin? But then be allowed to assault up without actually being moved.

KInG wrote: Lol. My soul grinder was hanging off ruins in previous games I've had. Think that was actually at an AoS game IIRC.

I remember seeing the photo, something about "winging it" I believe?!

KInG wrote:Anyways, part 1 of my question; moving the trees. Somewhere in the rulebook we read that the trees must go back at the end of the movement phase. Well Al did. Did he read that bit wrong?

Page 13 in the rules, following the sentence I quoted is, "Remember, however, to put them back where they originally were (or as close as possible) after you finish moving..." So Al got it right.

KInG wrote:Talking about that soul grinder in a ruin what would u say if it scaled the outer walls of the ruin to show it's approximate position inside the ruin ?

Maybe they want you to be able to place them in the movement phase but are being generous with the assault phase?

Therefore can the soul grinder only go on the ground floor of the ruin? But then be allowed to assault up without actually being moved.

The soul grinder is a walker, so is allowed on the upper floors of ruins. Between the rules for assaulting in ruins and 'wobbly model syndrome', there should be no reason why a soul grinder can't get into close combat in a ruin. You would just need to measure carefully and agree with your opponent as to the position of the SG before, during and after the close combat.

The trees; therein lies the problem. If they have to go back after you finish moving then at the end of the movement phase you cannot be occupying the position of the trees as it needs to be put back.
If you then apply this to charging moves also, when you reach the end of your assault move you cannot be occupying the tree's spot on the table. If the tree is right up against the model u wanna assault, this could be an issue.