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Can (or do) Units Join ICs?

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Can (or do) Units Join ICs?

Postby timewizard » Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:57 pm

An IC that moves within 2" of a friendly unit joins that unit. Is the reverse true?

If I have an IC on the field, move the IC, and then move a friendly unit within 2" of the IC, does the IC then join that unit? Or does the IC have to make that move?

For example, Wazdakka turbo boosts into the open, so he will get a 3+ cover save. Then an Ork Warboss moves directly behind him. The boss can shoot and gets a 4+ cover save from Wazdakka, and if they are not joined, Wazdakka still gets his 3+ save. They can both then fire their weapons.

Next question, if they remain this way through the end of the next movement phase, are they then joined as a unit, even if neither one moved?
The rules say that the IC had to move into coherency with the unit.

Last question (more related to turbo boosting units) since TB confers a 3+ cover save, to shots from template weapons ignore that save?

What do you all think?

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Postby Antubis » Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:12 pm

ICs joining is not voluntary, if he end up within 2" of a unit, he must it.

A cover save is a cover save wether given by cover or by wargear/special rule, so yes a flamer wiil ignore it.
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Postby killmaimburn » Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:27 pm

3 thread topic cross over burns mine eyes.. (Its great fun though)
Antubis wrote:A cover save is a cover save wether given by cover or by wargear/special rule,
Can I stick that in the bit of the 2nd page of the first topic on this..so it carries on being a majority cover thing :)
Last edited by killmaimburn on Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby timewizard » Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:33 pm

killmaimburn wrote:3 thread topic cross over burns mine eyes.. (Its great fun though)


I had hoped it would be fun! :wink: Looking for answers too though, didn't want to hijack other threads! :D
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Re: Can (or do) Units Join ICs?

Postby ruffian4 » Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:28 pm

timewizard wrote:An IC that moves within 2" of a friendly unit joins that unit. Is the reverse true?

Not sure, but p67, indep characters and em/disembark.
That seems to be proof that in those circumstances at least, a unit can join an ic.
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Postby timewizard » Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:51 pm

Yes, but that seems to be specific to embarking and transports.
And here is yet another question. The IC leaves a unit during the movement phase by moving out of coherency.
Can the unit leave an IC by moving away or must they remain in coherency?
Page 67 says the IC and unit can disembark together or seperately but if seperate must end their move more than 2" away from each other.
Does this carry over? Can you at any time move the unit away from the IC or must the IC be the one to make the move away from the unit?

Sounds kind of silly. Just asking what everyone thinks. I believe that a unit can "unjoin" and IC by moving out of coherency (of course this can only happen in the movement phase, if the IC and unit are joined and assault they must do so as one) but I was curious about what you all thought.
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:12 pm

ICs leave units, not the other way around.

you couldnt, for example, keep your IC stationary (to fire a Plasma Combie Weapon at full range, etc) and move the unit away from him (they arent allowed to break Coherency from ICs the way that ICs can break coherency from units) - if the IC wants to leave he has to move.

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Postby timewizard » Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:33 pm

I thought as much. So by the same token, a unit couldn't join an IC could they?
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Postby killmaimburn » Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:35 pm

What are the repurcussions of not being able to move into 2" of an IC (note p47 talks about the joining as a bolstering of the unit by the IC, which kind of impacts)
I'm thinking silly stuff :)
IC with homer brings down a unit, but can't have them rosebud because they can't be within 2" of him, 2"6" away only for whole formation (sounds very weird)
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Postby timewizard » Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:47 pm

But there is no restriction on moving within 1" of a friendly unit.
We know by rule that if an IC moves within 2" of a friendly unit, he joins that unit.
Question is, if a unit moves within 2" of an IC, does the IC have to join that unit?
This is important due to USR restrictions, moving and firing, etc.
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:59 pm

timewizard wrote:I thought as much. So by the same token, a unit couldn't join an IC could they?

hmm the rules are getting messy...

first it says that for an IC to join a unit he has to move to within 2" of it.

but then it says that if the IC ends his movement phase (not move) within 2" of more than one unit, then you must declare which unit he is joining - without listing "not joining a unit" as an option (or accounting for the fact that the IC might not have moved this turn).

then it says that if the character doesnt want to join a unit, he must remain more than 2" from the unit at the end of the movement phase. this seems to imply that joining is mandatory if you find yourself within 2" at the end of the phase...

but joining is done as you move the IC (if it was done at the end of the phase, then the rule preventing a unit from moving after it is joined by an IC would be pointless). :?

also, what if an IC and a unit find themselves within 2" of eachother at the end of the movement phase, but neither unit can move in order to prevent the IC joining the unit? (say, they are both Pinned) the IC cant join them because he cannot move so that he is within 2" of them, but they are within 2" at the end of the phase. :?

'tis a mess. :(

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Postby timewizard » Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:07 pm

I know! There is also the rule that Ruffian quoted about units in transports, page 67, says that if an IC and a unit are both embarked in a transport, "...they are automatically joined, just as if the character was within 2" of the unit." Doesn't say 'just as if the character moved within 2" of the unit'. Does this imply that if you move a unit within 2" of an IC they are automatically joined?
Page 67 goes on to say that if either of them (the IC or the unit) are already in the transport, "...the other may join them by embarking too..." so a unit embarking would automatically join the IC.
However, would this be a vehicle specific rule overriding the ICs joining a unit rule? :?
What would the AoS houserule consensus be?
Or does it get chalked up to GW JABR (Just Another Broken Rule)?

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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:45 pm

i think the 5th ed version of the rule was supposed to be "if an IC ends its movement phase within 2" of a unit then it joins that unit", but they didnt change all of it when they redid the page.

problem is, if you join at the end of the phase, you cant have a rule stopping a unit from moving after the IC has joined (which they clearly wanted). :?

maybe it should be that an (un-joined) IC joins a unit:
- if it ends its move within 2" of it, as soon as its move is complete (if the unit didnt move first then they lose the chance to do so)
- if it ends its movement phase within 2" of a unit

maybe thats how it should have been written?

either way, doesnt quite clear up the turbo-boost bit. :(

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Postby timewizard » Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:15 pm

After re-reading page 48 again, look at the last bullet point on the right hand side. "If an independent character joins a unit that has gone to ground, he immediatly goes to ground as well, and vice versa."{emp mine}
Since the rule says vice versa, and going to ground means no movement or other action, this rule seems to say that a unit could join an IC that has gone to ground, because the IC could not possibly go to ground and then move to join a unit. 8O
So it would seem that if an IC has gone to ground, a unit moving within 2" would join the IC and go to ground as well at that point. And if that is the case, then it would seem that a unit could, and in fact would, join an IC by moving within 2" of the character.
What do you think?

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Postby killmaimburn » Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:58 pm

There is a little problem though..the full quote is
"If an independent character joins a unit that has gone to ground, he immediately goes to ground as well, and vice versa. He may not leave as long as his unit has gone to ground."
So could it not also be read as.. he cannot join, and vice versa he cannot leave if they are pinned (with a very badly placed full stop in the middle?)
I hope i'm wrong because that is some darned fine citage if I am.
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