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Chapter Relics

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Chapter Relics

Postby Baragash » Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:51 am

Because I disagree with Army Builder ;)

Is a model limited to only one weapon from the list?
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Re: Chapter Relics

Postby Darklighter » Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:02 pm

No as far as I can tell you can tool up with as many as you'd like i.e shield, armour, bolter and sword. It would be hella expencive points wise and make it unfeazable, but not against the rules as far I see them.
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Re: Chapter Relics

Postby jlong05 » Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:32 pm

Baragash wrote:Because I disagree with Army Builder ;)

Is a model limited to only one weapon from the list?

You are not allowed to disagree with AB. ;)

Seriously, I know this is under discussion. I don't have a SM Codex. but can someone who is in the know, please outline the specific upgrades that would allow or disallow this so I can better understand to help make an educated decision on it.
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Re: Chapter Relics

Postby Spack » Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:09 pm

Here's the exact rule from the codex for relics that is causing dispute.

A model can replace one weapon with one of the following

Intent is difficult to determine. It can be argued that this is simply stating it's a one-to-one swap of weapons. Conversely, I can see this as a restriction of one relic per model as it states "one weapon" rather than "any" or "each" which are less restrictive clauses.
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Re: Chapter Relics

Postby Baragash » Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:53 pm

IMO it is a sub process. The army list entry gives permission for models to select items from the Chapter Relic lists. Having established in the first instance that models can make multiple visits to the Chapter Relics list, each time they want to facilitate a visit to that list, they swap one weapon for one relic.

The language is neither strict or sufficient enough to over-ride the plurality granted in the army list entry.
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Re: Chapter Relics

Postby jlong05 » Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:32 pm

I disagree with the plurality clause you are stating. That simply states that items in the relics list are available, not a ranting of the ability to take multiple items.

Based on the rule Spack listed, assuming no other interactions, other that what Baragash indicated I would have to also state that the rule is that a model can replace one weapon with one of the following...

This to me is pretty clear that only a single weapon may be swapped for a single relic.

If the intent is multiples, the rule should have stated: A model may replace any number of weapons for relics from the following...

This would have been more clear that multiple swaps were allowed.

Having said that though, I can see a possible reason for argument, but disagree that AB is necessarily wrong. This clearly needs a FAQ update to fix the rule to be more clear.
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Re: Chapter Relics

Postby Baragash » Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:31 pm

jlong05 wrote:I disagree with the plurality clause you are stating. That simply states that items in the relics list are available, not a ranting of the ability to take multiple items.


That's not correct on a RAW basis. Given plurality you have to assume that it applies in all instances/contexts unless told otherwise - if you don't do that then you've gone beyond RAW and added words.

jlong05 wrote:Based on the rule Spack listed, assuming no other interactions, other that what Baragash indicated I would have to also state that the rule is that a model can replace one weapon with one of the following...


That logic does not work, look at all the other entries. They all allow you to swap blah blah for "one of the following". So Melee Weapons would mean for example:
You could swap your Bolt Pistol for one item from the list
You could swap your Melee Weapon for one item from the list
You could swap your Bolt Pistol and Melee Weapon for one item on the list
You couldn't swap your Bolt Pistol for a Power Sword and your Melee Weapon for a Power Fist because you'd have taken more than "one of the following".

jlong05 wrote:If the intent is multiples, the rule should have stated: A model may replace any number of weapons for relics from the following...


That's no better it would allow someone to swap one weapon for five relics ;)
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Re: Chapter Relics

Postby Spack » Sun Oct 27, 2013 11:23 am

Baragash wrote:IMO it is a sub process. The army list entry gives permission for models to select items from the Chapter Relic lists. Having established in the first instance that models can make multiple visits to the Chapter Relics list, each time they want to facilitate a visit to that list, they swap one weapon for one relic.

The language is neither strict or sufficient enough to over-ride the plurality granted in the army list entry.


At no point is the word items used exclusively with the Chapter Relics list reference, in every case it is referenced to all wargear lists, eg.

May take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and/or Chapter Relics lists.


It allows multiple items to be taken for a single model, but doesn't explicitly allow multiple items per list.

Personally I don't mind if someone takes multiple relics on a single model, and would be fine with AB allowing it, but jlong doesn't have the codex so providing actual quotes rather than interpretations is the only way he can make an informed decision for himself. Hopefully with both relevant quotes he can do this.
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Re: Chapter Relics

Postby timewizard » Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:13 pm

I too do not have the codex as yet and need the relevant quotes to venture an opinion. That's why I have not posted as yet.

Spack's rule quote, at first look, would seem to indicate that one weapon may be exchanged for one relic, but I need more info.
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Re: Chapter Relics

Postby Baragash » Sun Oct 27, 2013 11:38 pm

SM Codex is available for anyone who pays the correct price and accompanying taxes (this edit was brought by your friendly neighbourhood spiderman)

Spack wrote:At no point is the word items used exclusively with the Chapter Relics list reference, in every case it is referenced to all wargear lists, eg.

May take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and/or Chapter Relics lists.


It allows multiple items to be taken for a single model, but doesn't explicitly allow multiple items per list.


But that's the point, it explicitly does allow multiple items per list simply by the fact of being plural - it is RAW that it applies to both multiple lists and multiple items within that list. Making a statement that it only applies to multiple list access is breaking RAW because by doing so that's adding an arbitrary restriction that isn't stated.

Also, as I pointed out, taking the one relice interpretation by definition restricts all (or at least most) other lists to only a single choice.
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