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Combat Squads as scoring units

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Combat Squads as scoring units

Postby timewizard » Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:19 pm

It's been quoted that the codex rules take precedent and that the newest codex is to be followed. With that in mind, the following.

In the new SM codex, a number of units can be split into combat squads. The units that can be split are then listed. It then goes on to state how they can be deployed. It ends by saying that if a unit is split into a combat squad it is treated as a seperate unit for the rest of the game.

Nowhere does it state that combat squads are scoring units. So the question is, since the release of the new codex, are tactical squads and scout squads the only scoring units in an SM army since they are the only 2 entries in the Troops section? And does this override other SM chapter specific codexes?

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Postby Baragash » Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:25 pm

Only the DA Codex now has the previous text in.

I'm pretty sure if you check the BA Codex online it can no longer spam scoring units (ie doesn't reference scoring in CS at all - other than indirectly through the separate units clause).

I don't see how CSing or not CSing would change whether a unit meets the scoring criteria (p91?).

Or in other words, only Scouts and Tacs score.
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Postby jlong05 » Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:33 pm

Baragash wrote:Only the DA Codex now has the previous text in.

I'm pretty sure if you check the BA Codex online it can no longer spam scoring units (ie doesn't reference scoring in CS at all - other than indirectly through the separate units clause).

I don't see how CSing or not CSing would change whether a unit meets the scoring criteria (p91?).

Or in other words, only Scouts and Tacs score.

Unless you are fielding a model that enables a unit to act as a Troops Selection, or is listed as specifically a scoring unit, that is. I am sure this is what you meant though.

Examples are:
DA Army as a whole(This is sticky as only troops would be scoring, except if they are slit into combat squads as then all are) very weird. Additionally Sammael and Belial grant bikes and Termies to be troops allowing them to score.
Kantor(Grants scoring to Sternguard)
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:42 pm

Baragash wrote:Only the DA Codex now has the previous text in.

I'm pretty sure if you check the BA Codex online it can no longer spam scoring units (ie doesn't reference scoring in CS at all - other than indirectly through the separate units clause).

yes, thats true - they changed the BA codex online when 5th ed came out (but didnt FAQ DA because "they were OK with it/it didnt make much difference" - paraphrased of course).

i was expecting C: SM (5th) to use the correct wording - this isnt a suprise. :)

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Postby Baragash » Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:09 pm

jlong05 wrote:Unless you are fielding a model that enables a unit to act as a Troops Selection, or is listed as specifically a scoring unit, that is. I am sure this is what you meant though.


Yeah. (My bad, I was answering the question asked rather than extending off into the related and useful points - I don't want to steal Tim's thunder :P )

EDIT: at least, that's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it.
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Postby Ranhothep » Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:31 am

On the subject of combat squads. Do you treat each as a separate unit in the dawn of was type of deployment? (i hope i remember well the name, i mean the one where u start with one HQ and two troops units - NOT FOC slots)
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Postby timewizard » Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:48 am

Ranhothep wrote:On the subject of combat squads. Do you treat each as a separate unit in the dawn of was type of deployment? (i hope i remember well the name, i mean the one where u start with one HQ and two troops units - NOT FOC slots)


Ummm, no, and yes. The way it works is, you have 2 troop units (let's make them tac squads for simplicity) in dawn of war they are deployed from the playerrs table edge. When deployed, each unit can be split into 2 combat squads which can be deployed seperately. So you can deploy;
2 - 10 man tac squads
1 - 10 man tac squad and 2 - 5 man combat squads
4 - 5 man combat squads

(mind you, we are not going into the reserves issue here at all!) :wink:

Hope this answers the question. :D

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Postby Baragash » Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:30 am

@TW: are you sure?

When deploying DoW it specifies at the end of deployment you can have a maximum of 1 HQ and 2 Troops. If you split a squad into CS then at the end of DoW deployment it would be 2 Troops (as it becomes 2 separate units the moment you decide to split them), and thus use both Troops allocations for deployment.
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:51 am

i too was under the impression that each Combat Squad would count as a separate unit (against the 2 Troop units limit) in DoW...

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Postby mattjgilbert » Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:07 pm

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:i too was under the impression that each Combat Squad would count as a separate unit (against the 2 Troop units limit) in DoW...

~ Tim
Yep I agree. Take a 10 man squad and split it into 2 5 man Combat Squads and there's your 0-2 troop units.
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Postby timewizard » Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:51 pm

Good morning all! Just woke up here and got the kids off to school.

On topic, I just had another read through and I have to agree with you that the squad (or units) that is split into combat squads would count for the 2 troop choices.

Confusing bit is that DOW says that the player that gose first can deploy up to 2 units from troop selection. This is where I thought you could deploy 2 - 10 man units, and split them into combat squads as per the codex.

However, codex says that a combat squad is treated as a seperate unit once the decision to split the unit is made. And further down in DOW, it says that troops and HQ units can infiltrate, "as long as at the end of the deployment the player still has a maximum of one HQ and two Troops units on the table."

Sorry for the misinformation, I stand corrected. :oops:

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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:02 pm

no worries mate - DoW is just weird. :?

they could have just said "2 Troops choices", but they wanted to be clever and account for armies that have multiple units in a single choice (IG, Combat Squads, Dedicated Transports etc).

a bit unnecessary IMO, as:
1. you get the rest of your army in your first turn anyway
2. 1st turn uses Nightfight (doesnt it?)
3. armies with multiple units in an FOC often have this to compensate for the weakeness of the individual units
4. just because its 3 units vs 3 unit doesnt make it balanced anyway, because of the potential for vastly different point totals and model counts.

i dont think it was worth all the confusion, myself... :?

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Postby timewizard » Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:31 pm

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:2. 1st turn uses Nightfight (doesnt it?)

yes it does
LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:i dont think it was worth all the confusion, myself... :?

~ Tim


agreed. It almost sounds like it was the result of multiple playtesting sessions that were "kitbashed" together.

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Postby Baragash » Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:51 pm

Personally I'm having trouble believing that the scenarios were properly thought through.

I prefer Gav T's Rules of Engagement myself, and will continue to use those (with minor modification for 4th -> 5th).
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Postby timewizard » Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:56 pm

Baragash wrote:Personally I'm having trouble believing that the scenarios were properly thought through.

I prefer Gav T's Rules of Engagement myself, and will continue to use those (with minor modification for 4th -> 5th).


I don't believe I've ever seen (or heard) of those. Care to share them? :wink:

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