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Couple of rules quiries last night

PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:13 pm
by KInG
I'm about to look these up myself, but thought I would ask what other people's take on them are. They came up in our big game last night, so I'm hoping for conformation of how we played it really :)

If a guy is shooting something and is within 2" of a guy touching the terrain/wall that is blocking more than 25% of the target, is the terrain negated or does it still give a cover save to target... My initial reaction was that this is some part of an older rule that no longer persists into 6th ed. All I can find in the RB anything near this is terrain types, defensive walls/barricades, which has something for assaulting purposes.

Second one was: A model stood in a ruin with a base on it, has no part of the ruin's walls covering it, the shooter can see 100% of the model, or even 24% of the model ;) What save does the target get? And if it goes to ground, what increase does it get to its cover save, if any?

I won't answer the last one myself. I'll wait and see if you guys come up with the same as me.

Re: Couple of rules quiries last night

PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:06 pm
by Angelwing
1) if the target is obscured by terrain from the firers los it gets a save. p 18 determining cover saves
2) the base of a ruin counts as area terrain, so its a 5+ save for standing in it. The going to ground bonus is +2. p98 Ruins with bases, p91 area terrain, last bolded paragraph.

Re: Couple of rules quiries last night

PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:20 pm
by timewizard
Angelwing has it in both cases.

Re: Couple of rules quiries last night

PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:06 pm
by KInG
kool ok so you both agree with me :) awseomeness abound. DL needs to position his DS'ers a little more carefully now :D

was only a quick friendly though, but next time.... ;)

Re: Couple of rules quiries last night

PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:53 pm
by Darklighter
Why no one has said that you give a cover save to your enemy if shoot out of the edge of the terrain you are standing in.

Re: Couple of rules quiries last night

PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:11 pm
by timewizard
I think you may be thinking of 5th edition rules there. In 6th edition, I don't believe you get a cover save if the attacker is firing out of the edge of area terrain.
It is only shooting through a forest that gives the target unit a cover save. In that case, I would think that the model's base would have to be completely within the forest for the target to get a cover save.

Re: Couple of rules quiries last night

PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:23 pm
by Darklighter
Yep that was what I tried to tell King, though I hadn't realised at the time that you don't even have to to be at the edge of the terrain anymore.

Re: Couple of rules quiries last night

PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:33 pm
by timewizard
I'm confused. You don't have to be at the edge of the terrain for what? Are you talking about getting or giving a cover save?

Can you be more specific with what was occurring? Where the target and firing units were?

Re: Couple of rules quiries last night

PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:01 pm
by KInG
:D Sure let me draw you a picture: lol

Image

now the Dark Angels were Blood Angels ;)
and the ML was a melta..
and the speeder was a DE Raider..
and they had DS into that position... none of which has a bearing on the question:

which is: does ruin give the skimmer a cover save? :)

Re: Couple of rules quiries last night

PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:18 pm
by timewizard
It looks to me like the speeder is more than 25% hidden by the wall section for the 2 right hand models, less than 25% for the 2 right hand models.

So the issue is, is more than 25% hidden from the point of view of the melta guy? It looks to me like it is, but I would have to see it IRL to be sure.

If it is more than 25% hidden, then the skimmer is obscured and since it is a cover save from being obscured by a ruin, it would be a 4+ cover save.

Re: Couple of rules quiries last night

PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:29 pm
by KInG
so the positioning of the guys on the area terrain base of the ruin don't negate it, that was the issue????

Re: Couple of rules quiries last night

PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:44 pm
by timewizard
The only thing the positioning of the models in the area terrain changes, is whether or not 25% of the vehicle is hidden from view.

If you look at the pictures on the bottom of page 75, in picture 2 more than 25% of the rhino is hidden behind the wall of the ruin. The rules say:

Picture 2: More than 25% of the front of the Space Marine Rhino is hidden by the ruin - the Rhino is obscured and will receive4+cover save from the ruin.

So in your picture, it doesn't matter where the base of the ruin the firers are standing, which is in the area terrain, the key point is if more than 25% of the skimmer is hidden from the majority of the firing models by a part of the ruin, it gets the 4+ cover save.

Re: Couple of rules quiries last night

PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:49 pm
by KInG
I think we understand you there TW, yes 25%, but again that wasn't the question we were asking about. We have assumed, both parties that under normal circumstances, the vehicle is 25%+ covered. What we now want to know is the guy shooting the melta (ML in the picture) not giving the skimmer a cover save, even though more than 25% is covered, due to his relation to the guy 2" in front of him touching the wall of the ruin.... ta dar!! hopefully that hit the spot :D

Re: Couple of rules quiries last night

PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:06 pm
by timewizard
Well, members of your own unit do not count for LOS or giving cover saves.

The cover save is based on the majority of the models in the unit.

Re: Couple of rules quiries last night

PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:20 pm
by KInG
KInG wrote:What we now want to know is the guy shooting the melta (ML in the picture) not giving the skimmer a cover save.... due to his relation to the guy 2" in front of him touching the wall of the ruin
wall.. ??? lol

Come one, you're winding me up, is my English that bad. :)

If you now read the original question in OP maybe you might have it ;)