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Deploying ICs in units...when and how?

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Re: Deploying ICs in units...when and how?

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Tue May 18, 2010 8:25 pm

Thanks for the quotes - thats what I was wondering about. :)

"Shrike may nominate a unit he is going to join and together they may infiltrate [rules change]."
I like how they worded that^. :)

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Re: Deploying ICs in units...when and how?

Postby timewizard » Tue May 18, 2010 9:00 pm

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote: @ TW:
Part of it is the problem with what "being deployed" means. If it is understood that when you deploy a unit you are placing it in play and on the table, then an IC can join a unit before this process occurs. "...may begin the game already with a unit...". Therefore, the IC is a part of the unit before the unit is deployed, and they are deployed together.

You are jumping ahead here.

The IC doesnt join the unit before deploying with it - it joins the unit by deploying with it (or joins it in reserve).

This still gives the IC plenty of time to "begin the game" joined to the unit, since the game doesnt start until after deployment. (The part you quoted doesnt affect deployment, or mean what you think it means)

~ Tim


But the rules says the IC "...may begin the game already with the unit..." so how can you be "already with" a unit if you can't join the unit until they are on the table? Then you aren't beginning the game joined with them, you are joining them during deployment.
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Re: Deploying ICs in units...when and how?

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Tue May 18, 2010 9:12 pm

The rule you quoted doesnt say they are already joined to the unit when the army is deployed, just when the game begins, and the game doesnt begin until the start if the first turn:
Start the game! Once deployment has finished, the
player that chose his deployment zone first starts
game Turn 1 with his first player turn.


So by joining the unit by deploying within 2" (or in the same transport), the IC can start the game joined to that unit. :)

Dont put the cart before the horse: the IC begins the game joined to the unit by joining the unit during deployment, not the other way around. ;)

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Re: Deploying ICs in units...when and how?

Postby mattjgilbert » Tue May 18, 2010 10:34 pm

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:Dont put the cart before the horse
You must declare your intention to pull the cart before you deploy the horse.
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Re: Deploying ICs in units...when and how?

Postby timewizard » Wed May 19, 2010 5:28 am

mattjgilbert wrote:
LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:Dont put the cart before the horse

You must declare your intention to pull the cart before you deploy the horse.

Nice one Matt! I like it!
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Re: Deploying ICs in units...when and how?

Postby ruffian4 » Wed May 19, 2010 10:08 am

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:Too late, sorry TW.
(By the time he deploys as an Infiltrator, the only units that havent set up yet either have Infiltrate anyway or are in Reserve/walking on turn 1)

Is this because he only joins after all deployment "at the start of the battle?"
Because a character is considered to be fielded with a unit from the start of the game?
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Re: Deploying ICs in units...when and how?

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Wed May 19, 2010 11:44 am

He can join a unit as he deploys, but if that unit has already deployed its too late for them to Infiltrate (because they have already deployed).

If he's joining them before Infiltrators are deployed, you dont get to take them all back off the table and then deploy them again when you deploy your Infiltrators (since no rule allows that). And if he's joining them as Infiltrators are deployed, then they are either deploying the same time (since they have Infilitrate anyway) or they deployed normally and he is just setting up within 2" of them (which could well put part of the unit - i.e. him - outside their normal DZ). There arent any non-Infiltrating units left to deploy at the time Infiltrators are deployed, since you have either already deployed them all or you have put them in Reserve (or they are off table waiting to walk on 1st turn in DoW), so there is no-one left for him to give Infiltrate to (in any meaningful way) if he Infiltrates himself.

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Re: Deploying ICs in units...when and how?

Postby ruffian4 » Wed May 19, 2010 1:29 pm

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:He can join a unit as he deploys,

But, if a character can only begin the game as part of a unit and that is the same as "start the game!", that means that it is not "joined" until "start the game!"

The location of the character model (assuming no transport) is incidental during deployment, as it only "joins" at the start of the game.

Is that what you mean?
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Re: Deploying ICs in units...when and how?

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Wed May 19, 2010 1:36 pm

ruffian4 wrote:
LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:He can join a unit as he deploys,

But, if a character can only begin the game as part of a unit and that is the same as "start the game!", that means that it is not "joined" until "start the game!"

No, by the time the game starts he is "already" joined to the unit. From p48 (emphasis added):

Alternatively an independent character may begin
the game already with a unit, by being deployed in
coherency with them
.


He joins by deploying with them, so that by the time the game starts he is already with them. Make sense?

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Re: Deploying ICs in units...when and how?

Postby ruffian4 » Wed May 19, 2010 2:14 pm

So you don't subscribe to that (the majority) point of view then?
That's good at least!

So, you might say that an infiltrating ic cannot set up with joining a non infiltrate capable unit in mind?
Last edited by ruffian4 on Wed May 19, 2010 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Deploying ICs in units...when and how?

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Wed May 19, 2010 2:20 pm

I thought I was with the majority (hence why INAT etc describes their FAQ answer as a "rules change", rather than a clarification of RaW - they wouldnt need a houserule to change it if it didnt work this way in the first place). :P

(on a serious note, I thought it was just TW that disagreed with me on the order of events in this case)

Im not saying I think its RaI (or even GaP), and I am open to the possibility that GW thought it would actually work, but by RaW you cant join an IC to a unit in time for that IC to grant the unit the ability to deploy via Infiltrating (you can however put them in Reserve so he can give them the ability to Outflank).

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Re: Deploying ICs in units...when and how?

Postby ruffian4 » Wed May 19, 2010 2:36 pm

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:I thought I was with the majority


Well, I may have got the wrong end of it, but I think those that have actually thought about it (rather than, for shrike et al, assume it's supposed to work) generally rely on the ic, not joining a unit until "start the game!"

This is why shrike/karandras doesn't work, as they cannot join a unit during deployment (possibly deploying the ic and unit together), but only become part of the unit at "start the game!"

The line of reasoning is...

Begin the game already with a unit, actually means become part of the unit you have deployed in coherency with, at the "start the game!" step.

See what I mean?

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:- he can Infiltrate alone but join a unit that has already deployed normally (setting up within 2" of them)

That ^ looks a bit dodgy to me.

EDIT.
If the ic attempts to join the non infiltrate unit during deployment, using infiltrate, he just stymied himself.
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Re: Deploying ICs in units...when and how?

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Wed May 19, 2010 2:49 pm

ruffian4 wrote:Well, I may have got the wrong end of it, but I think those that have actually thought about it (rather than, for shrike et al, assume it's supposed to work) generally rely on the ic, not joining a unit until "start the game!"

I thought it was accepted that if an IC grants Infiltrate to a unit they join, then they can join in Reserves and Outflank with the unit?

ruffian4 wrote:
LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:- he can Infiltrate alone but join a unit that has already deployed normally (setting up within 2" of them)

That ^ looks a bit dodgy to me.

EDIT.
If the ic attempts to join the non infiltrate unit during deployment, using infiltrate, he just stymied himself.

What I meant is, you deploy the non-Infiltrate unit normally, along with the bulk of your army. Then, when it comes to deploying Infiltrators, you deploy the IC, within 2" of the already deployed unit (he can be just outside the normal DZ if you wish).

He doesnt have to deploy at the same time as them in order to join them, as long as he is deploying within 2" of them.

That is all right, isnt it? (dont think it has ever been challanged before...)

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Re: Deploying ICs in units...when and how?

Postby ruffian4 » Wed May 19, 2010 3:03 pm

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:I thought it was accepted that if an IC grants Infiltrate to a unit they join, then they can join in Reserves and Outflank with the unit?

Again as I see the debate (but don't agree with this solution), because an ic cannot join a unit during deployment (regardless of where I place the ic, ie in coherency), as it will only be considred "joined" at the "start the game!" step, the ic cannot "confer" something like infiltrate, as that ic cannot be considered joined until after everything is deployed.

= shrike's unit doesn't exist as he is not joined during deployment, but will be joined after = no infiltrating termies etc.

Now, if shrike is put in reserve, he has explicit permission to join a unit that is also in reserve and so, he can confer infiltrate, but, due to the manner in which it is conferred, it cannot be used to infiltrate him and his squad, because they are in reserve. So, it can only be used to outflank.

Yeah?
There is a sense to it, but it doesn't hold water for me.

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:[If the ic attempts to join the non infiltrate unit during deployment, using infiltrate, he just stymied himself.

What I meant is, you deploy the non-Infiltrate unit normally, along with the bulk of your army. Then, when it comes to deploying Infiltrators, you deploy the IC, within 2" of the already deployed unit (he can be just outside the normal DZ if you wish).

He doesnt have to deploy at the same time as them in order to join them, as long as he is deploying within 2" of them.
[/quote]
Infiltrate is an * usr. So an ic that joins a non infiltrate unit, will lose the special rule. So, in effect, by using a usr mechanism to join a unit, he will lose the usr and be in a bit of a limbo. 8O
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Re: Deploying ICs in units...when and how?

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Wed May 19, 2010 3:28 pm

ruffian4 wrote:Now, if shrike is put in reserve, he has explicit permission to join a unit that is also in reserve and so, he can confer infiltrate, but, due to the manner in which it is conferred, it cannot be used to infiltrate him and his squad, because they are in reserve. So, it can only be used to outflank.

Yeah?

Yes, thats what I was saying. :)

ruffian4 wrote:Infiltrate is an * usr. So an ic that joins a non infiltrate unit, will lose the special rule. So, in effect, by using a usr mechanism to join a unit, he will lose the usr and be in a bit of a limbo. 8O

Since he has already used Infiltrate in order to get to within 2" of them, he doesnt really need it anymore anyway once he is there.

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