LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:Yes, thats what I was saying.

That second (quoted) part is, yes.

It's the first bit that makes no sense, ie why he can't join a non infiltrate unit and confer infiltrate and actually infiltrate (rather than end up outflanking).
Their reason for that makes no sense to me.

From what I have read today, that is not what you are saying.
The outcome is the same, but the mechanism to get there isn't.

They would have it, that irresepective of where (and by what means) the ic is actually placed, there is a non-time between that and "start the game!"
Deployment ends and then the game starts, so the ic did not join during deployment, but at some fleeting point afterwards.

Lets say I have an infiltrating ic model, with an auspex. I deploy it, in coherency of a squad.
Enemy infiltrators deploy, in range so I shoot.

Now, if I have joined a unit at this point, the whole unit, inc the ic can fire.
If not, only the ic can fire.

Start the game! has not yet happened. Therefore, the ic is not yet part of that unit, but a solitary model.

I don't think that's ^ truly joining during deployment, but afterwards, but that's the predominant argument you find.

Sorry I missed jumping in here yesterday, was occupied the entire day and into the night. So...
Interesting points from both Ruffian and Lord Malek. That being said, we know there are problems with the sequence of events in deploying forces and starting the game.

One thing we don't have a problem with is the way infiltrators are deployed. From page 75 BRB under INFILTRATE; "Units with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friends and foe) have been deployed." Note the wording, infiltrators are deployed last. Not may choose to be, not might be, they are deployed last. This is why on pages 92 and 93 BRB the order of deployment for pitched battle and spearhead is the same; deploy forces, deploy infiltrators, make scout moves.

Now how would I deploy an independent character without the infiltrate USR with a unit of infiltrators? We know from the USRs that if an IC without infiltrate joins a unit with it, the rule is lost. So if I wanted to join a SM chaplain with a scout squad, the scout squad loses their infiltrate ability.

But according to Lord M and some others, I can't join the IC to the scouts until after the scouts have been deployed on the table. But until the scouts have been joined by the chaplain, they have the infiltrate ability and must be deployed after all other units, including the chaplain, have been deployed. I don't have the option to deploy the scouts with the rest of the army. So the chaplain has to be deployed before the scouts and only then can join them? How can he join a unit that isn't on the table yet? The game explodes. But the solution to this dilemma is found on page 48 where we have specific permission for the chaplain to begin the game already joined to the scouts. How? By being deployed in coherency with them.

But how do we resolve the infiltrate issue? Scouts have infiltrate but the chaplain does not, so when do they join and deploy? GW actually thought of this and solved the problem under the Special Rules section on page 48; "For example, if an independent character without the 'infiltrate' special rule joins a unit of infiltrators during deployment, the unit cannot infiltrate (see the Universal Special Rules section for more details)." So the USR condition can be applied by the combined unit before they are deployed.

Problem solved. I join the chaplain and the scouts at the beginning of the game. This combined unit then deploys normally because the addition of the chaplain has caused the scout squad to lose the infiltrate ability. They no longer "...are deployed last..." they are deployed normally. The only condition is that the chaplain must be deployed in coherency with the unit. I can't put the scouts on the table and put the chaplain 3" away from it.

In this manner, since Karandras has shadowstrike and a unit of striking scorpions including a model with shadowstrike has infiltrate, if Karandras is joined to a unit of striking scorpions they have infiltrate and are deployed last, after all other forces have been deployed.

In the case of Shrike, he and models in his unit benefit from the infiltrate special rule, so they also can be joined together and if they are, they then are deployed last, after all other units have been deployed.

The question of when the game 'begins' or 'starts' is irrelevant in this case. What is relevant is how the forces are organized. This organization takes place when players are deciding how to deploy their forces on the table.

But how do we resolve the infiltrate issue? Scouts have infiltrate but the chaplain does not, so when do they join and deploy? GW actually thought of this and solved the problem under the Special Rules section on page 48; "For example, if an independent character without the 'infiltrate' special rule joins a unit of infiltrators during deployment, the unit cannot infiltrate (see the Universal Special Rules section for more details)." So the USR condition can be applied by the combined unit before they are deployed.

Whilst this clearly establishes RAI (not that I believe there should have been doubt about it), IMO it is insufficient to establish RAW.

It's similar to the 1" issue that arises from the assault rules and difficult terrain - being 1" away means you can't fail to assault through DT but the movement rules require you to be more than 1" away.

A rule exists for which a condition cannot technically be met.

Baragash wrote: It's similar to the 1" issue that arises from the assault rules and difficult terrain - being 1" away means you can't fail to assault through DT but the movement rules require you to be more than 1" away.

The movement rules say you cannot move within 1" of an enemy model unless assaulting. So you can be exactly 1" away, which is why you can still assault '...even if its unit rolls a double 1 on its difficult terrain test."

Baragash wrote: A rule exists for which a condition cannot technically be met.

The condition is met in the assault rules because the assault rules states; "Note that if a model stopped 1" away from the enemy...". This addressed the 4th edition issue of being 1" away means you are within 1" with this rules change.

In the case of ICs joining units, the special rule addresses how to handle an IC without infiltrate joining a unit of infiltrators.

Don't really want to derail this, so I suggest a new topic if you want to continue...

Exactly 1" away = within 1" in GW terms.

timewizard wrote:Now how would I deploy an independent character without the infiltrate USR with a unit of infiltrators? We know from the USRs that if an IC without infiltrate joins a unit with it, the rule is lost. So if I wanted to join a SM chaplain with a scout squad, the scout squad loses their infiltrate ability.

Well you could put them in Reserves together - and since the IC doesnt have Infiltrate, the squad doesnt get to Outflank.

(like I said though, its a bad example used in the IC rules)

timewizard wrote:But until the scouts have been joined by the chaplain, they have the infiltrate ability and must be deployed after all other units, including the chaplain, have been deployed. I don't have the option to deploy the scouts with the rest of the army. So the chaplain has to be deployed before the scouts and only then can join them? How can he join a unit that isn't on the table yet? The game explodes. .

I think its just that the person who used it as an example in the IC rules didnt understand exactly how deployment works (maybe it wasnt finalised at that time?).

Its just an example though - you dont need to read too much into it.

timewizard wrote:In this manner, since Karandras has shadowstrike and a unit of striking scorpions including a model with shadowstrike has infiltrate, if Karandras is joined to a unit of striking scorpions they have infiltrate and are deployed last, after all other forces have been deployed.

Still doesnt give him the ability to join them before they would already be deployed though (thats why it gets houseruled at big tourneys - if the rules already allowed it, they wouldnt need to change them for it to be possible).

Some facts:
- nothing allows an IC to join a unit before deployment
- units that havent got Infiltrate (and arent being put in Reserve etc) have to be deployed already before you deploy Infiltrators
- by the time an Infiltrating IC deploys, there are no units for him to grant Infiltrate to that havent deployed yet or dont have it anyway

Its unfortunate, if you are using Shrike/Karandras, but thats how it is.
You can still grant the ability to Outflank however, so at least thats something (and you can extend a unit's reach into no-man's land by deploying the IC outside your DZ within 2" of the unit).

@ Baragash: good post. Its not hard to believe that different parts of the rulebook were written at different times and by different people, even while under the assumption that certain rules/units would work differently than they did in the end. In this case, it could be that Shrike/Karandras were originally going to have Retinues (before those started to be phased out), or it could be that originally you could join ICs to units before deployment - it could just be that they have misconceptions as to how the rules actually work, and they are just assuming that anything they write is possible...

@ TW: if you are 1" away then you are within 1". Thats what it means.
(see the bottom of p3 if you dont believe me )
The fact is that one part of the book says "if X is true, do Y" and another part says "X cant be true".
(This is another one where I think GW dont know how the rule actually works, since an FAQ once told us to move models back 1" from a Vehicle after combat, without realising that this doesnt fix the problem since the models were still within 1" - they should have said "just over" 1")

~ Tim
p.s. @ Baragash: not just in GW terms, but in actual terms too. Although I dont want to derail either.
We've covered it before though - people just forget.

@Tim:

As I have encountered many times before writing process notes at work (and homebrew Codices, like the NL ones when I forgot that CSM Daemons can DS and assault), as the writer of the original process it's very easy to skip steps out no matter how pernickety you are when you write the instructions, you still miss steps out - hence the importance of end user testing.

IMO being able to arrange your forces however you want before deployment begins is a process step that fell into that trap (despite not being missed out in the "once-in-reserves" section - though I imagine that's because they had to specifically deal with the 4th Ed issue of rolling separately for lone ICs).

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:

timewizard wrote:Now how would I deploy an independent character without the infiltrate USR with a unit of infiltrators? We know from the USRs that if an IC without infiltrate joins a unit with it, the rule is lost. So if I wanted to join a SM chaplain with a scout squad, the scout squad loses their infiltrate ability.

Well you could put them in Reserves together - and since the IC doesnt have Infiltrate, the squad doesnt get to Outflank.

(like I said though, its a bad example used in the IC rules)

Yes, I agree that I could put them in reserve, that is one option. The other is to deploy them together at the start.

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:

timewizard wrote:But until the scouts have been joined by the chaplain, they have the infiltrate ability and must be deployed after all other units, including the chaplain, have been deployed. I don't have the option to deploy the scouts with the rest of the army. So the chaplain has to be deployed before the scouts and only then can join them? How can he join a unit that isn't on the table yet? The game explodes. .

I think its just that the person who used it as an example in the IC rules didnt understand exactly how deployment works (maybe it wasnt finalised at that time?).

Its just an example though - you dont need to read too much into it.

How can you say that a special rule under independent characters is just an example? Would that mean that every special rule is also just an example? The special rules in all the codexs? The universal special rules? Where does it stop?

It is a rule, not just an example. If you join an IC without infiltrate to a unit with infiltrate, they lose it. If you deploy a unit with infiltrate inside a dedicated transport, it cannot infiltrate.

The rules for ICs specify 2 ways an IC can join a unit. There is also a 3rd way. That one is found in the transport section. Nothing in the rules for an IC joining a unit at the beginning of the game says the unit must be deployed on the table first. Saying that it is required the unit has to be deployed first is unhitching the cart from the horse!

timewizard wrote:How can you say that a special rule under independent characters is just an example? Would that mean that every special rule is also just an example?

The rule is that special rules can be lost because an IC joined the unit (and also, that rules arent conferred from one to the other unless specified otherwise), and the Infiltrate special rule is just used as an example.

Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the ‘stubborn’
special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred
upon the character, and the character’s special rules
are not conferred upon the unit. In some cases
though, the independent character or the unit may
lose their special rules as a result of the character
joining the unit. For example, if an independent
character without the ‘infiltrate’ special rule joins a
unit of infiltrators during deployment, the unit
cannot infiltrate (see the Universal Special Rules
section for more details).

The red parts are rules, the green part is an example (it even says "For example:..." ). They just chose a bad example to illustrate the rule. It doesnt change how the other rules work (it just shows that the person who wrote it doesnt know how the final rules work/were going to work, with regards to ICs joining units/units deploying).

"Scouts", "Fleet" or "Move Through Cover" would have been better examples.

Hope thats clearer.

~ Tim

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:

Its just an example though - you dont need to read too much into it.

Depends on what its an example of though, doesn't it?

If its an example of how the rules should work, it's quite damning.

(Concerning infiltrate ic joining non infiltrate unit, by infiltrating)

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:He joins by deploying with them, so that by the time the game starts he is already with them. Make sense?

No.

By placing the model, you are joining the unit.
An ic joining a unit loses the usr.
The usr you are trying to use, will be lost in the act of joining. That is, in joining, rather than having had joined.

Sadly an example of how rules should work isn't the same as being told how they do work.

It tells us what happens if the IC joins the unit. It doesn't tell us how the IC is allowed to join the unit.

Like I said, I think it puts RAI to bed, but it's not supported by RAW.

Baragash wrote:
It tells us what happens if the IC joins the unit. It doesn't tell us how the IC is allowed to join the unit.

Actually it does. An iIC can begin the game already with a unit by deploying in choerency with it.
The unit and the IC are deployed at the same time, in coherency, just like the members of any other unit.

The argument centers around how deployment occurs. Tim's stance is that first you deploy the unit then you deploy the IC in coherency with the unit thereby joining them.

Mine is that you join them by deploying them in coherency.

Look at Imperial Guard infantry platoons. A platoon counts as a single troops choice when deploying. Normal FOC is 6 troop choices (2 compulsory 4 optional) but an IG infantry platoon can have a command squad, 5 infantry squads, 5 heavy weapon squads, 2 special weapon squads and 1 conscript squad for a total of 14 troop choices. If they are deployed individually and then joined together, you have an illegal list because you can't have 14 troop choices so you can't deploy your force.

But if they are joined together and then deployed, you are deploying 1 troops choice and have to have 1 more to satisy the compulsory requirement.

This is why I maintain that units and ICs join together first and are then deployed on the table in coherency.

I disagree that it makes any difference whether your interpretation or Tim's is used in the case of Shrike. I need to review the wording at home to explain why I previously concluded that.

timewizard wrote:Look at Imperial Guard infantry platoons. A platoon counts as a single troops choice when deploying. Normal FOC is 6 troop choices (2 compulsory 4 optional) but an IG infantry platoon can have a command squad, 5 infantry squads, 5 heavy weapon squads, 2 special weapon squads and 1 conscript squad for a total of 14 troop choices. If they are deployed individually and then joined together, you have an illegal list because you can't have 14 troop choices so you can't deploy your force.

I don't think that's what you meant to write as it's self-contradicting.

I don't think so. It's not a platoon until all the units are joined.
If they can't be joined until after the units are deployed, they can never be deployed as a platoon.

timewizard wrote:
Mine is that you join them by deploying them in coherency.

That's right, you do.

But, the thing is, as I see it, when you deploy your army in a bog standard mission, you are deploying everything except what you want in reserve/to infiltrate etc.
Everything is put down together and everything works fine.

By the time you deploy infiltraitors, you are deploying units, 1 unit at a time.
Because they (imo) wanted to cut out some dirty tricks/cheating, formalised how ic's etc become joined in reserve by requiring reseves structures, but not in normal deployment.

So, by inference, how ic's join during deployment, while deploying singular units, nopt in reserve, has gotten muddied.

I reckon the thought is, if you need special permission to do that there (in reserve), you need special permission to do that here (normal deployment).

I'm with you on how it should work, also that the author assumed/was mistaken/whatever that it really does work that way.
I also don't agree with Tim, about not paying attention to it. It's an example of how the usr's work with ic's and joining units.

Sadly though, as Bara said, it's not RAW.
To make things worse and to add ammo to the nay-sayers, it's a copy/paste from 4th.