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Deploying ICs in units...when and how?

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Deploying ICs in units...when and how?

Postby timewizard » Tue May 18, 2010 4:30 pm

The 'Shrike Controversy" seems to have finally died over on some other forums. Since cooler heads prevail here on AoS, I thought it might be okay to bring this up again, maybe we can come to a resolution.

In BRB page 48, ICs joining and leaving units, we have "Alternatively an independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them."

This has been interpreted to mean that you must first deploy the unit on the table, then you deploy the IC in coherency with the unit and they are now joined. I believe this is wrong. I think so because of the following;

On the bottom of page 48 in the 'special rules' section, the last sentence is; "For example, if an independent character without the 'infiltrate' special rule joins a unit of infiltrators during deployment, the unit cannot infiltrate..."

If the IC can only join the unit after the unit has deployed on the table, this makes no sense. The unit of infiltrators can deploy by infiltrating after both armies have deployed, and an IC can only join them after they have deployed, but if the IC joins them after they have deployed by infiltrating, they cannot infiltrate.

I think the rule is really pretty simple. After you have your list, and as you are deploying the army on the table, you can join ICs to units and deploy them accordingly. So I can join an IC with a squad and deploy both in a dedicated transport. And if I join and IC with a unit of infiltrators and the IC does not have the infiltrate special rule, the unit must deploy without infiltrating (or go into reserve of course).

Thoughts?
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Re: Deploying ICs in units...when and how?

Postby killmaimburn » Tue May 18, 2010 4:35 pm

Can't work out if ruffian will kick your butt, or approve :D
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Re: Deploying ICs in units...when and how?

Postby timewizard » Tue May 18, 2010 4:44 pm

killmaimburn wrote:Can't work out if ruffian will kick your butt, or approve :D


From the movie My Cousin Vinny;

Vinny Gambini: I understand you played a game of pool with Lisa for $200, which she won. I'm here to collect.
J.T.: How 'bout if I just kick your ass?
Vinny Gambini: Oh, a counter-offer. That's what we lawyers - I'm a lawyer - we lawyers call that a counter-offer. This is a tough decision here. Get my ass kicked or collect $200. Let me think... I could use a good ass-kickin', I'll be very honest with you... nah, I think I'll just go with the two hundred


Either way, it'll be fun!
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Re: Deploying ICs in units...when and how?

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Tue May 18, 2010 4:45 pm

I think the bit about Infiltrating is just a bad choice of examples on the author's part (since it is redundant). Didnt they make the same mistake in the last edition too?

And isnt the Shrike issue really the Karandras issue anyway? :P

The truth is that lots of people dont (and didnt) really know how deployment works - and I am willing to bet that this isnt limited to those outside the studio. ;)

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Re: Deploying ICs in units...when and how?

Postby timewizard » Tue May 18, 2010 5:09 pm

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:The truth is that lots of people dont (and didnt) really know how deployment works - and I am willing to bet that this isnt limited to those outside the studio. ;)

~ Tim


I have no way of knowing for sure, but it seems possible that to most players, deployment is seen as an action or activity as in the act of placing models on the table at the start of the game.

But it seems to GW, deployment is a process. It is organizing your forces, making preliminary decisions about unit compositions, deciding which units to field and which to hold in reserve, whether to deep strike or outflank in future with units that have that ability, etc.

But then they use the word deploy as an action. Units dismebark by being deployed within 2" of an access point. Is this movement? Can you deploy over another model (friend or foe) to arrive at that point? Don't know.

But as far as the start of the game, it makes a big difference for many armies. In the case of the Eldar which you referred to, to get shadowstrike for the striking scorpions, if Karandras cannot join the unit before they are placed on the table allowing them to infiltrate, the only other option is to take an exarch and pay the extra points for shadowstrike which makes Karandras redundant for that particular power. Seems like he should be able to join the squad and have them infiltrate, which would mean he joins them before they are placed on the table.
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Re: Deploying ICs in units...when and how?

Postby Drax » Tue May 18, 2010 6:44 pm

until a definitive answer is forthcoming from GW themselves i'd play this one in the spirit that it is intended: as long as you make it clear which unit he will be attached to, that unit gets to infiltrate as long as it otherwise follows the rules for infiltrators

...which seems to be the way the rest of you guys see it so far too
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Re: Deploying ICs in units...when and how?

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Tue May 18, 2010 7:04 pm

Hang on, I thought it had been (previously) agreed that if an IC grants a unit Infiltrate when he joins them, then:
- he can Infiltrate alone
- he can Infiltrate alone but join a unit that has already deployed normally (setting up within 2" of them)
- he can join a unit that already has Infiltrate and Infiltrate with them
- he can join a unit in Reserve and grant them the ability to Outflank (regardless of whether they normally have infiltrate themselves)

However, since all units without Infiltrate (that arent being put in Reserve or walking on in the first turn of DoW) have already been deployed before you deploy any Infiltrating units, it is far too late for him to allow a such a unit to set up via Infiltrating (they have already deployed anyway) - Sorry!

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Re: Deploying ICs in units...when and how?

Postby killmaimburn » Tue May 18, 2010 7:12 pm

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:it is far too late for him to allow a such a unit to set up via Infiltrating (they have already deployed anyway) - Sorry!
RAW and GAP collide,
Whilst you may be correct with the book in your hand, you are at one.The GW GT and adepticon/INAT have firmly (repeatedly) said you can. As have most tables I've played on or near.
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Re: Deploying ICs in units...when and how?

Postby timewizard » Tue May 18, 2010 7:16 pm

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:However, since all units without Infiltrate (that arent being put in Reserve or walking on in the first turn of DoW) have already been deployed before you deploy any Infiltrating units, it is far too late for him to allow a such a unit to set up via Infiltrating (they have already deployed anyway) - Sorry!

~ Tim


But in the case of Karandras, he has shadowstrike. A squad including a model with shadowstrike can infiltrate.

The IC (Karandras) can begin the game already with a unit, in this case striking scorpions. The requirement is that he is deployed in coherency with them

So he joins the unit of striking scorpions thus giving them the infiltrate special rule, and when the infiltrators deploy, he and the striking scorpions deploy on the board. Karandras must be deployed with the unit, he can detach from them in later turns but they must be deployed together.
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Re: Deploying ICs in units...when and how?

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Tue May 18, 2010 7:29 pm

Too late, sorry TW.
(By the time he deploys as an Infiltrator, the only units that havent set up yet either have Infiltrate anyway or are in Reserve/walking on turn 1)

Note that he still gives the squad Infiltrate, so they can still Outflank if they are Reserves together. He just doesnt give it to them in time to actually Infiltrate.

(Didnt Possessed used to work like this with Scout or something? i.e. they could gain Scouts, but by the time they got it, it was too late for them to Outflank?)

@ KMB: how did they manage to do that, though? Is it just hand-wavium, or have they rewritten the way ICs join units to allow it to work?

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Re: Deploying ICs in units...when and how?

Postby mattjgilbert » Tue May 18, 2010 7:41 pm

It's probably listed as a rule override*. "The rule clearly doesn't work and most people can see the sensible and intended answer so we override RaW in this case".

*I remember when the old community FAQ group was in its infancy, yakface had a rule-override or rule change as one of the answer types (along with RaW, GaP etc.) and I imagine the concept still exists.
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Re: Deploying ICs in units...when and how?

Postby killmaimburn » Tue May 18, 2010 7:53 pm

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:@ KMB: how did they manage to do that, though? Is it just hand-wavium, or have they rewritten the way ICs join units to allow it to work?
I can see exactly how and why they did it.. to protect the game/players from the likes of you foul spawn :P

The thing I don't get is the fudge to keep things tidy, whereby both documents then say that *other* ICs cannot also be part of that unit, whilst awesome for game balance..saying that suggests that (informally for those who play the game) an IC is joined to something prior to deployment (/or together) to confer its effect..however only one IC may join it (against both its informal "this is how it works", and against rulings about things like an IC attached to a apothecary counts as part of the unit).
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Re: Deploying ICs in units...when and how?

Postby timewizard » Tue May 18, 2010 7:56 pm

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:Too late, sorry TW.
(By the time he deploys as an Infiltrator, the only units that havent set up yet either have Infiltrate anyway or are in Reserve/walking on turn 1)

Note that he still gives the squad Infiltrate, so they can still Outflank if they are Reserves together. He just doesnt give it to them in time to actually Infiltrate.

~ Tim


Part of it is the problem with what "being deployed" means. If it is understood that when you deploy a unit you are placing it in play and on the table, then an IC can join a unit before this process occurs. "...may begin the game already with a unit...". Therefore, the IC is a part of the unit before the unit is deployed, and they are deployed together.

If the unit has infiltrate but the IC does not, then the unit with IC may not infiltrate but must deploy as normal or go into reserve.

But if the IC grants the infiltrate ability to its unit, like Karandras or Shrike, then the unit can deploy by infiltrating.
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Re: Deploying ICs in units...when and how?

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Tue May 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Well it does work, if you consider that:
- the joined unit still benefits (Outlflank)
- the ability is written for UCs (and just granted to PLs as well)

It just doesnt give the player the as big an advantage as they would like. ;)

Personally I think the PLs were originally going to have a Retinue of their Aspect Warriors... (similar thing for Shrike, maybe?)

EDIT: posted too slow, so got ninja'd twice.

@ KMB: I didnt mean "why did they do it?" but rather "how do they actually achieve it, ruleswise?" - do they just say that it is so and gloss over what changes make it possible?

@ TW:
Part of it is the problem with what "being deployed" means. If it is understood that when you deploy a unit you are placing it in play and on the table, then an IC can join a unit before this process occurs. "...may begin the game already with a unit...". Therefore, the IC is a part of the unit before the unit is deployed, and they are deployed together.

You are jumping ahead here.

The IC doesnt join the unit before deploying with it - it joins the unit by deploying with it (or joins it in reserve).

This still gives the IC plenty of time to "begin the game" joined to the unit, since the game doesnt start until after deployment. (The part you quoted doesnt affect deployment, or mean what you think it means)

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Re: Deploying ICs in units...when and how?

Postby killmaimburn » Tue May 18, 2010 8:19 pm

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:@ KMB: I didnt mean "why did they do it?" but rather "how do they actually achieve it, ruleswise?" - do they just say that it is so and gloss over what changes make it possible?
As Matt says, when faced with utter ubsurdity on a case by case basis (not setting floodgates flowing) both have tidied and answered questions sometimes against RAW (to the annoyance of some)..taking into account a full spectra of judicial interpretive rules (of which the literal is about 3% :lol: :lol:..seriously :| )
If you meant directly..here are the relevant passages (although I thought you had them
INAT
FORCES OF THE SPACE MARINES: KAYVAAN SHRIKE (page 92)
SM.92.01 – Q: Can another Independent Character join Shrike (and his unit) before the game and gain the infiltrate special rule?
A: No, as Shrike‟s ability is a special rule that does not specify it affects other ICs joined to his unit, it does not [clarification].
Ref: ORK.62C.01, RB.95A.01
SM.92.02 – Q: Can Shrike join a unit before the game and use his „Seen, But Remain Unseen‟ ability to allow them all to infiltrate?
A: Yes, Shrike may nominate a unit he is going to join and together they may infiltrate [rules change].
Ref: ELD.56B.01

Throne of skulls.

47) If an independent Character such as Captain Shrike is joined to a unit that is outflanking,
when can he leave the unit? The independent character can leave the unit at any time in the
movement phase after they have arrived on the table by simply moving him out of coherency
with the units (See page 48 of the rule book)

62) If I have use Shrike in my army he gives any unit he joins the infiltrate special rule. If I then
attach another independent character to the unit does the whole unit benefit from the
Infiltrate special rule? No, any universal special rule as per p74 to p76 of the rule book that
have an asterisk ( * ) against it is automatically lost when an independent character without the
special rule joins the unit. Note that Shrike rule give only the unit he joins infiltrate, further
independent characters who join the unit are not part of the unit..


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