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Does the attached Heavy weapon make Eldar Guardians Artilery

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Does the attached Heavy weapon make Eldar Guardians Artilery

Postby Gymbol » Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:38 pm

Just curious.
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Postby Spack » Sat Nov 08, 2008 10:00 pm

Only a unit defined as Artillery are artillery - and those are the heavy support units. The eldar guardian platforms are smaller, more mobile weapons and are not artillery.
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:02 pm

just to add to what Dan said: the heavy weapon platform model in a Guardian squad is just a marker to show which weapon the unit has - it doesnt exist ingame at all (doesnt take up space in a transport, cant be shot at/charged, and you dont take any measurements to/from it or us it for LOS purposes, it cant be damaged when the squad takes hits, etc etc). its the 2 Crewmen that matter - they effectively share the weapon.

hope that helps :)

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Postby Angelwing » Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:39 am

To add something further, artillery gun models usually have an armour value like vehicles. There are exceptions of course eg tyranid biovore.
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Postby Culven » Sun Nov 09, 2008 5:41 am

Angelwing wrote:To add something further, artillery gun models usually have an armour value like vehicles.

though, I can't recall any instance of this being identified in the Unit entry. It is defined in the Artillery rules, and one must look at the unit entry to determine whether the unit type is "Artillery". Which, of course is the important part. If the unit entry doesn't state "Artillery", then it is not.

On another note, I believe that Biovores are an Infantry unit, not Artillery, and the unit doesn't consist of gunners operating an Artillery Gun.
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Postby KInG » Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:50 am

On a side note, but related,

- can the crewmen be out of coherency with each other?
- Does the gun model need to be in coherency with one crewman?
- can the gun model only move like infantry or can it shoot along from one end of the unit to the other to be fired by another crewman located there?
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Sun Nov 09, 2008 12:52 pm

KInG wrote:- can the crewmen be out of coherency with each other?

yes - as long as the unit itself is still coherent, as normal.

KInG wrote:- Does the gun model need to be in coherency with one crewman?

yes, as per its rules. however, this doesnt really have any impact on the game (i suppose it just stops people 'hiding' the weapons from their opponent).

KInG wrote:- can the gun model only move like infantry or can it shoot along from one end of the unit to the other to be fired by another crewman located there?

the model doesnt exist ingame, and nothing says that only a crewman in coherency with it can fire the weapon. they effectively both have the weapon, but only one of them can fire it at a time (kinda like a time share :P) - you dont even need to move the model back and forth (as long as it is in coherency of one of the crew).

there is nothing stopping you from putting the crew at opposite ends of the unit, and alternating between each of them every turn when it comes to firing the weapon.
(unless your opponent/event organiser wont let you, just like anything else)

personally i keep both crew relatively close together (now there is no LOS/Range sniping, its not so much of an issue), but they can sometimes get separated as the game goes on (for example, if one has to make a Pile In move). i rarely feel the need to pass the weapon back and forth, due to the ability to move and fire to get into the position you want anyway. however, when it come to removing one of crew as a casualty, i sometimes swap the weapon over.

hope that helps :)

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Postby Gymbol » Sun Nov 09, 2008 2:11 pm

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:
KInG wrote:- can the gun model only move like infantry or can it shoot along from one end of the unit to the other to be fired by another crewman located there?

the model doesnt exist ingame, and nothing says that only a crewman in coherency with it can fire the weapon. they effectively both have the weapon, but only one of them can fire it at a time (kinda like a time share :P) - you dont even need to move the model back and forth (as long as it is in coherency of one of the crew).

there is nothing stopping you from putting the crew at opposite ends of the unit, and alternating between each of them every turn when it comes to firing the weapon.
(unless your opponent/event organiser wont let you, just like anything else)
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I, for some reason, always thought you measured the range of the weapon from the barrel of the weapon when you shot it.

I think you are saying that the weapon doesn't really exist, aside from being a sort of 'identifier', and that the gun model may 'move' as much as 24 in the shooting phase from one side of the squad to the other given a large and spread out squad.

The missile launcher's range is really a 48 circle in 2 locations as much as 24 apart?
is the question that will arise.
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Sun Nov 09, 2008 2:36 pm

Gymbol wrote:I, for some reason, always thought you measured the range of the weapon from the barrel of the weapon when you shot it.

in 4th ed, you needed LOS from both the gun model and at least one crewman - maybe thats what you are thinking of?

Gymbol wrote:I think you are saying that the weapon doesn't really exist, aside from being a sort of 'identifier',

thats how it works, yes, as per the codex.

Gymbol wrote:and that the gun model may 'move' as much as 24 in the shooting phase from one side of the squad to the other given a large and spread out squad.

the gun model doesnt really have to move at all in order for the weapon to to be shot - it might have to move when one of the crewmen are killed, however (i.e. if it isnt already within 2" of the other crewman at this time). this isnt a "move" in the normal sense of the word though - its not a model/squadmember ingame so doesnt trigger Difficult/Dangerous Terrain etc, its just a counter.

Gymbol wrote:The missile launcher's range is really a 48 circle in 2 locations as much as 24 apart?
is the question that will arise.

if you want to put it like that, yes. another way to imagine it is that both crewman have a copy of the same weapon, but only one of them can fire it at any given time (thats essentially how it works, ingame).

if you want to avoid unsuspecting opponents raising their eyebrows, then keep both crew relatively close together. :)

hope that helps

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Postby timewizard » Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:00 pm

Gymbol wrote: I, for some reason, always thought you measured the range of the weapon from the barrel of the weapon when you shot it.

I think you are saying that the weapon doesn't really exist, aside from being a sort of 'identifier', and that the gun model may 'move' as much as 24 in the shooting phase from one side of the squad to the other given a large and spread out squad.

The missile launcher's range is really a 48 circle in 2 locations as much as 24 apart?
is the question that will arise.


Codex:Eldar says taht the range and LOS for the heavy weapon platr=form are always drawn from the crew member.

The Eldat FAQ says that either crewman can fire the weapon regardless of where they are in the unit, so yes, according to RAW, you could have the crewmen at either end of a gun line, and either one could fire the weapon.

It doesn't make sense in some ways. It has a crew of 2, it must stay in coherency with one of the crew members, but there is no mention of how it gets from one to the other. If one of the crew members is killed, the other is armed with the platform. If both crew are killed, then the platform is removed. No mention is ever made of how two crewman, 20+ inches apart, can fire the same weapon platform on alternate turns, or how the weapon can be 'moved' or passed from one to the other. But that's the rules. It's probably (fluffwise) an Eldar mystery. 8)
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Postby KInG » Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:41 pm

Personally i thiink they meant the crewmen had to stay in coherency with the gun and each other, but that bit wasn't clear. 'Where ever they are in the unit'... gives the wrong impression that they may be miles apart from each other.

What does the codex say ref the moving of the gun model.. anything? Seems odd that it would just fly 12" over to the other side of the unit if the unit was staying stationry :|
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:52 pm

KInG wrote:Personally i thiink they meant the crewmen had to stay in coherency with the gun and each other, but that bit wasn't clear.

nah. the codex quite clearly says that it has 2 crew, and must stay in coherency with at least one of them (not necessarily both, even if they are both alive).

the rules on operating the weapon are even in a separate paragraph to those on keeping the platform within coherency of a crewman.

the FAQ supports this, by saying that either crewman can fire the weapon (its not like you have to nominate which crewman starts with the weapon, and the other crewman only gets to start using it once his partner is dead).

KInG wrote:What does the codex say ref the moving of the gun model.. anything? Seems odd that it would just fly 12" over to the other side of the unit if the unit was staying stationry :|

the gun model doesnt exist ingame - the codex tells us that it is essentially a marker, and to assume that the weapon is carried by the crew member firing it.

and as to the weapon platform zooming about: whats to say it cant? its a remote control anti-grav platform that doesnt slow the squad down in the slightest (they can even Run with it keeping up). it can also move and fire, so could be hovering about all the time (it doesnt necessarily move from one end of the unit to the other instantaneously - the crewman could press a button and it could hover over to him, between shooting phases).

hope that helps :)

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