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Getting assaulted in your own turn??

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Re: Getting assaulted in your own turn??

Postby Baragash » Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:05 pm

Baragash wrote:How so?

The disembarking player doesn't gain the right to actually conduct the assault process during his opponent's turn ;)


I'll just put this one up again so someone who thinks it does work can explain where the assault vehicle rule provides sufficient instruction to interact with the rules process as presented mainly on page 9 and page 20.
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Re: Getting assaulted in your own turn??

Postby KInG » Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:09 pm

It's a special rule, it overrides the normal process. :)

And the special rule does give you the right. It says, may assault in the turn you... Yada yada.
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Re: Getting assaulted in your own turn??

Postby Baragash » Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:15 pm

Ok sure, explain to me the new process with appropriate references.
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Re: Getting assaulted in your own turn??

Postby timewizard » Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:08 pm

Baragash wrote:Ok sure, explain to me the new process with appropriate references.


First, let me preface this to say I do not think this is what was intended. This is a devil's advocate academic rules discussion. Also, any highlighting or underlining is emphasis that I added. That being said,

From page 9 of the Main rules under Exceptions - "While playing Warhammer 40,000, you'll occasionally discover exceptions to the general turn sequence laid out here, when things are worked out as they occur rather than in any strict order. "

"Occasionally, the actions of one player will trigger the sudden appearance of a particular unit, or may activate some special rule or occurrence. When this happens, the exceptional rule will contain all the information you need to resolve it."

From page 80 - Wrecked. "The passengers must immediately disembark in the usual manner (see page 79), save that they must end their move wholly within 3" rather than 6"."

From page 33 - ASSAULT VEHICLE
"Passengers disembarking from Access Points on a vehicle with this special rule can charge on the turn they do so, even on a turn that the vehicle was destroyed."

So, at first glance, it would appear that the following could occur;

You shoot at an opponent's assault vehicle.
The vehicle is "Destroyed - Wrecked".
The passengers, by rule, must immediately disembark.
The assault vehicle rule says the disembarked passengers "...can charge on the turn they do so..."
And when you read the assault phase rules on page 20, it doesn't say specifically that you can only assault an enemy unit on your own turn, it simply gives the mechanics for charging the enemy and resolving the fight.
The Exceptions rule on page 9 would seem to indicate that immediately after the vehicle is "Destroyed - Wrecked" and the passengers successfully disembark (not emergency disembarking as that prevents any further voluntary actions for the rest of the turn) and after they pass a pinning test (if not they are not allowed to charge) they could then declare a charge and attempt to resolve it as per the assault phase rules.

Again, this is just an academic argument. I can't find anything ironclad in either the rules or any FAQs that simply resolves it one way or the other. But no real surprise there.
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Re: Getting assaulted in your own turn??

Postby Angelwing » Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:22 pm

As silly as it sounds, I think Nige actually has this right. Of course I'd bet my house this is not the way the rules are intended, and I would of course possibly hurt myself laughing if an opponent tried it on me.
However, it would be interesting for someone to try it at a tournie. Kiss goodbye to all your best general and sportsmanship comp points though.
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Re: Getting assaulted in your own turn??

Postby killmaimburn » Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:13 pm

Odd bits and bobs
KInG wrote:Now then; the only time I disembark from access points in your turn is if you specifically wreck my vehicle. Explosion is no good because I'm not getting out of access points.
this not true... p426 says an explosion counts as disembarkation.. and p80 "However, if a Transport is destroyed by a shooting attack, any unit that shot it that turn can, if allowed charge the now disembarked passengers" Its important that you count as disembarked so split fire etc etc can't shoot contents twice.(and if you haven't disembarked your ruleswise unassualtable kind of)

The above all works, based on assault vehicle rules uber allis, you may take a stormraven, loaded with assault troops and blow up and assault.. the only problem is the most likely situation that will crop up(being shot in your own turn) in is with interceptor rules etc.. which means you arrived this turn.. which means no assualting (period) because you're not allowed to assault from reserve and assault ramps don't get round that rule.

(which RAI kind of makes sense why they were so incredibly harsh sticking that rule there I guess)

EDIT- I notice they also sewed up the self destruct by terrain as "instantly immobilised".. so you can't pelt through as much lava as possible to make sure you leap out (I can't remember why people thought they could do that.. but reading here its quite clear if not immmobilised immobilise yourself.. (not going through route of lose 1 HP then on table X etc etc).
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Re: Getting assaulted in your own turn??

Postby Baragash » Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:25 pm

Well firstly we have the convention previously established with assault ramps + fleet that permission to ignore prohibitions only effects the involved prohibition.

timewizard wrote:The Exceptions rule on page 9 would seem to indicate that immediately after the vehicle is "Destroyed - Wrecked" and the passengers successfully disembark (not emergency disembarking as that prevents any further voluntary actions for the rest of the turn) and after they pass a pinning test (if not they are not allowed to charge) they could then declare a charge and attempt to resolve it as per the assault phase rules.


That interpretation is definitely out. Nothing in the assault vehicle rule provides a timing on when the unit can attempt to assault, so to suggest they could do so immediately is absolutely a non-starter.

Let's assume, for the moment, that Nige's basic premise holds (that they can assault that turn), when can they do so?
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Re: Getting assaulted in your own turn??

Postby killmaimburn » Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:33 pm

Baragash wrote:Well firstly we have the convention previously established with assault ramps + fleet that permission to ignore prohibitions only effects the involved prohibition.
the problem is the provision states a situation involving the current question. Hence my fences (above) which neuter it heavily from outside.

Baragash wrote:so to suggest they could do so immediately is absolutely a non-starter.

Let's assume, for the moment, that Nige's basic premise holds (that they can assault that turn), when can they do so?
Well immediately is out because it has to be after damage has been inflicted (shooting or movement), and as above pinning etc tests must be taken as intervening events on the timeline.. and it must occur by the rules-during legitimate assault phase declarations.
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Re: Getting assaulted in your own turn??

Postby timewizard » Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:43 pm

killmaimburn wrote: and it must occur by the rules-during legitimate assault phase declarations.


But during whose assault phase? That's the problem with the rule. It says that the unit can charge but does not say when it can charge.

Does it charge in the enemy shooting phase as soon as it is forced to disembark because it's transport was destroyed-wrecked?

The Exceptions rule on page 9 would seem to support this:

"While playing Warhammer 40,000, you'll occasionally discover exceptions to the general turn sequence laid out here, when things are worked out as they occur rather than in any strict order. "

So this is worked out as it occurs as follows.

You shoot the enemy transport.
It is hit.
It is destroyed - wrecked.
The passengers disembark. It is not an emergency disembark. They disembark within 3" as per rules.
They pass the pinning test.
They now can declare a charge against an enemy unit.
They roll for charge distance, resolve overwatch, yadda, yadda, yadda, assault is resolved.
You continue your shooting phase with your next unit.

So it doesn't seem like you would have to wait until your opponent's assault phase to charge the enemy. And even if you did, who would get the first charge? The disembarked unit? A unit from the player's army whose current turn it still is?

If this was going to be done, then it would seem that the player's shooting phase should "hold on" while the passengers disembark, and check if they can or want to charge a unit, then the player's shooting phase would continue.

Opens the door for many interesting things to happen!
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Re: Getting assaulted in your own turn??

Postby KInG » Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:00 pm

Lol this is great. :)
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Re: Getting assaulted in your own turn??

Postby Baragash » Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:02 pm

timewizard wrote:It says that the unit can charge but does not say when it can charge.

Does it charge in the enemy shooting phase as soon as it is forced to disembark because it's transport was destroyed-wrecked?

The Exceptions rule on page 9 would seem to support this:

"While playing Warhammer 40,000, you'll occasionally discover exceptions to the general turn sequence laid out here, when things are worked out as they occur rather than in any strict order. "


There is nothing in the assault vehicle rule providing an exception to the general turn sequence. Examples of things which do contain exceptions to the general turn sequence: Feel No Pain ("when a model....suffers an unsaved wound"); Force ("if....inflicts....unsaved wound....immediately"); Gets Hot ("when....For each that....immediately"); Hammer of Wrath (If....and ends its....it makes....resolved at").

There is a substantial difference between making the switch between constraint does versus constraint doesn't apply, and something which inserts into, replaces or otherwise over-rides a process flow. The assault vehicle rules represent the removal of a constraint, they are absolutely not a modification to a process flow.

timewizard wrote:So it doesn't seem like you would have to wait until your opponent's assault phase to charge the enemy. And even if you did, who would get the first charge? The disembarked unit? A unit from the player's army whose current turn it still is?


This is my point in the question (that I repeated twice, then rephrased) - the assault vehicle rule does not provide permission to assault in the [EDIT]non-owners[/EDIT] assault phase (either) because it doesn't provide any process by which you can carry out the required steps in an opponents turn.

Contrast this with Attention Seeker rule which provides both the required triggers and process by which an assault in the enemy assault phase is resolved.
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Re: Getting assaulted in your own turn??

Postby BANE » Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:10 pm

^^^ This THIS THIS!!!!!!
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Re: Getting assaulted in your own turn??

Postby timewizard » Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:13 pm

Bara - I'm not disagreeing with you!

I said I was taking a devil's advocate position.

The Exceptions rule does give permission for events to occur out of sequence. But it also goes on to state that "When this happens, the exceptional rule will contain all the information you need to resolve it."

Clearly, the exceptional rule (Assault Vehicle) does not contain "all the information" since it does not say at what point the disembarking passengers can charge.

For this rule to allow that occurrence, it would (or should) say that passengers can immediately charge from a vehicle destroyed in the enemy's shooting or assault phase. Or it should say that the passengers can charge in their own assault phase. Unfortunately it does not.

So while the rules may allow for the disembarked passengers to charge on the turn they do so even if their vehicle is destroyed, there are no mechanics to address doing so in an enemy player's turn.

But I could see someone trying to pull this off, falling back on TMIR and requesting a dice off for it. And as others here have noted, if it was tried on me, it would probably be my last game with that opponent.

But @ KInG, this is an interesting read of the rules you came up with, and it did initiate the most interesting and fun rules discussion we've had around here in quite some time! 8)
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Re: Getting assaulted in your own turn??

Postby BANE » Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:20 pm

[quote="timewizard"]
Clearly, the exceptional rule (Assault Vehicle) does not contain "all the information" since it does not say at what point the disembarking passengers can charge.

For this rule to allow that occurrence, it would (or should) say that passengers can immediately charge from a vehicle destroyed in the enemy's shooting or assault phase. Or it should say that the passengers can charge in their own assault phase. Unfortunately it does not.

So while the rules may allow for the disembarked passengers to charge on the turn they do so even if their vehicle is destroyed, there are no mechanics to address doing so in an enemy player's turn. [quote]

THIS

[quote="timewizard"]But I could see someone trying to pull this off, falling back on TMIR and requesting a dice off for it[quote]

This would be the point I would request a dice roll too, 1-5 I punch you in the face 6 reroll.

[quote="timewizard"]But @ KInG, this is an interesting read of the rules you came up with, and it did initiate the most interesting and fun rules discussion we've had around here in quite some time! 8)[quote]

Please don't encourage him TW.
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Re: Getting assaulted in your own turn??

Postby Baragash » Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:25 pm

timewizard wrote:Bara - I'm not disagreeing with you!

I said I was taking a devil's advocate position.


S'ok, I understand where you're coming from :wink: :)

Also, I can totally see how someone might be a nefarious rules-twister :P who would deliberately try to represent theinnocently read the assault vehicle rule that way at first glance. :wink:
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