Grey Knights RAW/RAI issue.....already!

conscriptboris · by **conscriptboris** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:15 am

Hi all,

Most of you have probably seen this on bols, however I see it as a issue considering I disagreed with a lot of the comments:

So a downright sinister rules conundrum came to us on the trip back to Adepticon. As with any RAW/RAI argument we can't figure out within 5 minutes, we figured you all should help make the call.

Today's Conundrum: the Astral Aim Psychic power possessed by Grey Knight Purgation squads. First the relevent rules snippet:

"...If the Psychic test is passed, the unit (and any accompanying character) can shoot at any enemy unit within range, even if they do not have line of sight to it, or it is outside the distance they can see in a night fight."

The Conundrum: Can a Purgation squad embarked in a vehicle which passes its Astral Aim test blaze away at targets as listed in the rule for the power, or not? In general, how does Astral Aim interact with vehicles and fireports, if it does at all?

The Case For: Codex overrides core rulebook, and the psychic power clearly states "can shoot at any enemy unit within range" upon a psychic testing being passed. Other rules restrictions on firing are ignored. The second part of the listed sentence simply lists 2 common examples of restrictions that are ignored, not all the restrictions that are ignored (which the first half of the sentence covers).

The Case Against: The psychic power doesn't specifically override the firing restrictions listed in the firing port rules in the vehicle section of the core rules. If they wanted that ability, they would have listed it specifically.

In a game system that requires and promotes a bit of role playing, i see this as a psychic attack, so they make there rounds dissappear and reappear in front of the enemy. Most people seem to argue that even though they dont need LOS they have to actually be out of cover/in a vehicle to fire. So i would say yes to firing in a vehicle! but this does need a quick FAQ!

thoughts?

Elvis

Baragash · by **Baragash** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:29 am

This:

The Case Against: The psychic power doesn't specifically override the firing restrictions listed in the firing port rules in the vehicle section of the core rules. If they wanted that ability, they would have listed it specifically.

It has previously been established that rules need to specifically override other restrictions eg (BRB FAQ) Fleet doesn't mean you can Run and therefore Assault negating restrictions for (eg) Disembarking or Deep Striking.

As with any RAW/RAI argument we can't figure out within 5 minutes

You're on pretty safe ground with GW if you start from a position of not breaking a rule that isn't addressed.

conscriptboris · by **conscriptboris** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:26 pm

doesnt the fire position represent models firing...isnt this a psychic attack?

Elvis

BANE · by **BANE** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:11 pm

No its a psychic ability, much like trying to use summoning with a teleport homer, it doesn't work because its the psychic ability that is effecting the units movement not there own ability to teleport. Same issue for gate.

KInG · by **KInG** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:16 pm

Some psychic powers are treated as shooting though. The question here is simple. Does the astral aim override the rules generally for fire points. Otherwise purgation squads will just add to a landraiders shooting ability.

killmaimburn · by **killmaimburn** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:56 am

Its not a psychic shooting attack it doesn't have a statline nor does it does it stop them from firing their weapons (or do we think I can bolt of change and fire my bolter at the same time?(p50))
Its an psychic enhancement *to* shooting (like the eldar reroll thingy or warp time).
Summation to me is "any unit" gets round LOS, range still applies. Thats it,so does "any unit" therefore overule every rule?
My opinion- dakka says it in smilies.
(the only time it turns up in bols lounge here
I can't stomach trying to read blogformat with 300 responses, its a one way medium.

imcdonnell · by **imcdonnell** » Sat Apr 16, 2011 2:34 pm

In the rule book no where does it say that passengers may not fire becasue they do not have line of sight.

It does however state "Unless specified differently in the vehicle’s entry, a single passenger may fire out of a fire point and the
other transported models may not fire. Ranges and line of sight are measured from the fire point itself."

To me this precludes any form of firing from a vehicle even if the line of sight rule can be ignored as it is not line of sight which prevents a passenger from firing but the fire point rule.

I am satisfied that the rules allow for the psychic test to be cast on those that are inside a vehicle but of course the effect of the psychic ability is to allow the troops to ignore line of sight rules.

Passing the test doesn't mean the firers shoot with a psychic shooting ability, but fire as normal but ignore line of sight.

Those affected and so firing are, I believe, constrained by all other shooting rules except for the line of sight rules - which means that they are still constrained in that they can only shoot out of a vehicle with fire points - the ignoring of line of sight doesn't affect this constraint just as it doesn't ignore weapon range.

When firing from the fire points they can of course target any unit out of line of sight.

Galador · by **Galador** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:47 am

They still have to fire from fire points, as the only rules it negates are the LOS and range for night fight. Think of it this way..... how many of those GK Power armoured guys can get their guns within range of that fire point?? They are all pretty huge guys, and then the power armour makes them even bigger, and the guns are pretty big themselves.... they just can't fit. Thats why they should have had the option for an open topped chimera!

killmaimburn · by **killmaimburn** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:32 am

Just buy one for a crap unit and hop in it turn one. Move and shoot weaponry means you could do that (end movement inside) even if both are rolling on in dawn of war. (you just probably won't be within 24 of the enemy)

ruffian4 · by **ruffian4** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:19 am

imcdonnell wrote:In the rule book no where does it say that passengers may not fire becasue they do not have line of sight.

Agreed.
You know how many models can fire even before you check los.

Its not blanket permission to shoot, ignoring all else, it wouldn't let you fire whilst locked, for eg, or having gone to ground.