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GT related HTH/CC against vehicles question.

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GT related HTH/CC against vehicles question.

Postby killmaimburn » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:31 am

OK I have an int 5 str6 relic blade leading a unit.. I charge a vehicle that moved 6" (or further.. whatever :D )
I hit, I'm on its rear armour..I penetrate..I get an immobilised result.

I have int 4 space marines and an int1 powerfist yet to lash out.
p63 table on to hits
Attacking a vehicle that is immobilised or was stationary in its previous turn. = Automatic hit.

So previously wide spread the internets has said that there is an implied comma after immobilised.
(so if you shoot it then assualt it..it is immobilised..It does not require having been immobilised the previous turn)

Current question (that has had Mr6 stomping his feet and Ljundhammer raised an eyebrow to)

I roll to hit by initative(?).. by the time I'm rolling to hit with lower initiative.. it is now immobilised by the relic blade..therefore my str4 bikers (who may have krak grenades :twisted: )and my str 8 fist autohit?

How does that read.. does it make sense, does it make a bunch of nerdrage well up, (fluffy wise if you got smacked by someone dead fast leaving you in a daze, a slow scrote would be able to sucker punch you easier wouldn't he :lol: )
Does KIng want to ask his GT judgey type friends?

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Re: GT related HTH/CC against vehicles question.

Postby mattjgilbert » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:42 am

If your I6 relic blade had caused a wound on a multi-wound model, would your hits at lower initiative still consider the model to be unwounded?

I've always assumed damage is immediate in such cases. An immobilised dread loses an attack doesn't it? Would you claim that it still had all it's attacks at I4 in a turn when it got immobilised at I6?
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Re: GT related HTH/CC against vehicles question.

Postby timewizard » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:46 am

Just about everything I've read, and the way I play it, is once the vehicle has been immobilized subsequent attacks auto hit.
In your case, if the I5 attack immobilizes the vehicle, any further attacks (I4 and I1) will auto hit.

Ninja'd by Matt! But agreed that damage is immediate. Even against infantry, if an I6 model kills an I5 model, the I5 one doesn't get to attack, it is gone.
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Re: GT related HTH/CC against vehicles question.

Postby killmaimburn » Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:16 pm

Thanks for your replies guys..(other folks feel free to carry on :) )
Devils advocate against myself(now you guys can take my side)
To remove a counter.. can we prove that..working out to hits requirements aren't done at the start. Doesn't this clash a bit with stuff to do with mixed weapon skill, If I kill certain people does the units majoirty weapon skill change mid fight by initiative step?
:)
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Re: GT related HTH/CC against vehicles question.

Postby timewizard » Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:42 pm

killmaimburn wrote:To remove a counter.. can we prove that..working out to hits requirements aren't done at the start. Doesn't this clash a bit with stuff to do with mixed weapon skill, If I kill certain people does the units majoirty weapon skill change mid fight by initiative step?
:)

Page 37 says to reslove attacks against units with different WS using the majority skill of the unit, however models that attack use their own WS. You resolve the attacks in Initiative order, but nothing in the rules says to recalculate WS diring the attack.

The rule on page 63 says attacking a vehicle that is immobilized or was stationary the previous turn... which implies the immediacy of the immobilized result.
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Re: GT related HTH/CC against vehicles question.

Postby ruffian4 » Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:23 pm

killmaimburn wrote:So previously wide spread the internets has said that there is an implied comma after immobilised.
(so if you shoot it then assualt it..it is immobilised..It does not require having been immobilised the previous turn)

I think so, you can even delete the word "immobilised" for the same effect.

Even though non ws vehicle do not function like infantry, infantry "et al" do.
This is necessary for the possibility on infantry vs infantry + tank.

Shooting by a unit, is considered simultaneous, close combat attacks are most definitely not, giving a stratification of results at each point in time like an ever developing pie chart of many colours.

It is clear, in a given series of sequential attacks, at which point the tank becomes immobilised/stunned, etc, in an initiative step.
Anything that comes along after, is provably after immobilisation.

mattjgilbert wrote:If your I6 relic blade had caused a wound on a multi-wound model, would your hits at lower initiative still consider the model to be unwounded?

I'd say something similar, about kharn the betrayer + pow fist pal, assaulting a tank. When Kharn inevitably kills his mate, will he get to attack at I1?

timewizard wrote: But agreed that damage is immediate. Even against infantry, if an I6 model kills an I5 model, the I5 one doesn't get to attack, it is gone.

Exactly, p37, no of attacks.
Even though the vehicle is not infantry the infantry still are.

killmaimburn wrote:To remove a counter.. can we prove that..working out to hits requirements aren't done at the start. Doesn't this clash a bit with stuff to do with mixed weapon skill, If I kill certain people does the units majoirty weapon skill change mid fight by initiative step?

That doesn't work though, does it?

Infantry vs infantry = majority ws at the point of engagement, which is no longer altered at I steps.

Special rules excepted, non ws vehicles are hit according to what they did before (which can't change) OR what they are doing now (which can change after an I step).

That's what I think, but then I did just make a mug of coffee with no coffee, so it is technically hot water. :cry:
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Re: GT related HTH/CC against vehicles question.

Postby killmaimburn » Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:07 pm

Is that where you've been all this time, failing to make coffee? I thought you were hibernating :lol:
ruffian4 wrote:
killmaimburn wrote: If I kill certain people does the units majoirty weapon skill change mid fight by initiative step?

That doesn't work though, does it?

Infantry vs infantry = majority ws at the point of engagement, which is no longer altered at I steps.
I can't find anything either way on "point of engagement".(staring at p37 on right on different ones).
Simple majority on rolling to hitt an enemy of different WS.
but if an int6 guy kills a bunch of gretchin.. do the in4 guys fight with the majority now the gruntherd + 1 gretchin (therefore needing 4s to hit)
thats how it works if you kill a unit from around an IC isn't it?
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Re: GT related HTH/CC against vehicles question.

Postby ruffian4 » Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:34 pm

In 4th, engagement altered (potentially) at each I step, now it doesn't, it remains static.
So I charge you, you respond.
At that point, the engaged models are set in stone.
Unengaged models cannot attack, though may still become casualties.

If I have a slow power fist independent character and you remove models around him, he still gets to attack at I1, though he might be +2 inches away (ie, not currently physically engaged) from the nearest enemy.
This is because of when engagement occurs (and never changes) through the assault.

So, infantry still must attack a non ws vehicle in I steps (though in most cases it wont be necessary) and so there will be a provable point at which it becomes immobile/wrecked or whatever.
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Re: GT related HTH/CC against vehicles question.

Postby timewizard » Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:51 pm

Another thing to consider is damage mechanics.

I assault your unit of infantry. I inflict 4 wounds. You choose which models are wounded/removed.

I assault you vehicle. If I inflict a weapon destroyed result, I select which weapon.
If I immobilize your vehicle, it is immediately immobilized.
If it is already immobilized, I select a weapon to remove.
And if all weapons are destroyed, your vehicle is destroyed. (Except Monoliths, damn them! :evil: )
If it blows up, there are no further attacks made, it is gone.

I believe this it the important difference, who chooses to remove what based on the wounds/damage inflicted.
The player being assaulted could opt to remove all low WS models to increase the WS of the unit, which would change the assaulting players to hit rolls. There is no game mechanic in place that allows this to occur.
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Re: GT related HTH/CC against vehicles question.

Postby killmaimburn » Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:10 pm

Awesome feel a bit more confident about that now.. it does still sound a little constructed.. But I think I can perry masonit if required :D
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Re: GT related HTH/CC against vehicles question.

Postby ruffian4 » Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:23 am

timewizard wrote:If it blows up, there are no further attacks made, it is gone.

Good point.

In a combat between infantry and infantry + tank, if the (single group of) infantry have a high I bloke with melta bombs, he explodes the vehicle and there are casualties on both sides...

...That happened at an I step higher than the rest of the combat, = no attacks for the casualties.

So, if I were to try to shore up the foundations of the argument with some additional Perry Masonry (good Lord! :oops: ).

Infantry are infantry and they always fight in I order, irrespective of their opponents, which may have no I.
Damage can be seen to occur at an I step (but, see below), see p64, squadrons assault phase.
To hit rolls are reliant on the "speed of the target." P63, above the table, at what speed does an immobilised vehicle go?
If a vehicle is immobilised how long does it take to stop? Corrobative evidence, on P57, terrain effects, DOG p69.

This is below.
The only fly in the ointment, I can find, is re walkers in assault, p73.
In para 3, the words "already stunned or immobilised at the start of the assault phase" glare out a bit. :|
This mechanism doesn't seem to accept the idea of I steps at all (on what is an infantry figure in close combat) re to hit and comparing ws as it might change during the assault phase.
:cry:
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Re: GT related HTH/CC against vehicles question.

Postby DaBoss » Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:34 am

Never realised that there could be a problem with the vehicle combat rules (5th has got better but still looks like it is open to some interpretation).

My thoughts and experience having played at a number of Grand Tournaments using Mechanized units.

First "Rolling to hit against vehicles", there is three levels of movement (p63).
I can now see that some people may read that "immobilised or was stationary" would allow Automatic Hits.
But Ive always considered that the next two speed levels override this.

A Unit may have a model with a high Initiative and causes an "Immobilizing" hit but the vehicle still counts as having moved at "Combat Speed" for all hits during that Combat.

Had this questioned at last years tournament and my opponent called over a Rules Judge, which ended up with 2 additional judges having to discuss the outcome. The result was that the "speed of the previous turn" is what counts.

Also had a debate about order of attacks, I had a Mob of 20 Ork Boyz including a Nob with Powerclaw hitting a Rhino full of Marines, the Boyz managed to get eight glancing hits which resulted in 4 shaken, 3 weapon destroyed, 1 immobilised - so I advised that the rhino was wrecked.
My opponent then said that the Nob should still have his attacks as they cause the Rhino to explode.
As there is no mention of Initiative order in the vehicle combat rules it sounded plausible (only in the vehicle squadron rules), but the judges ruled that Initiative order should be followed and therefore the vehicle was already dead by the time the Nob attacked.
I now agree with my opponent on the fact that all attacks should be resolved before rolling the damage results.

So my take is that the "vehicle speed the previous turn" does count and as their is no initiative order all damage results are applied after all attacks are resolved.
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Re: GT related HTH/CC against vehicles question.

Postby ruffian4 » Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:19 pm

DaBoss wrote:As there is no mention of Initiative order in the vehicle combat rules it sounded plausible (only in the vehicle squadron rules), but the judges ruled that Initiative order should be followed and therefore the vehicle was already dead by the time the Nob attacked.

It's the infantry doing the attacking (even if the tank is being hit by a dreadnought), the non ws vehicle is an object moving at x speed. Infantry attack in I steps.

DaBoss wrote:I now agree with my opponent on the fact that all attacks should be resolved before rolling the damage results.

But infantry resolve their attacks fully at each I step.
That's to hit, to wound (armour pen) and armour saves/remove casualties (damage results).

There probably is no need for the statement (reminder?) in squadrons, for damage to be inflicted at each I step, as the damage in close combat will be caused by an infantry model (of some sort) each of which must attack in a particular order and fully resolve the result in that same order.

A non ws vehicles only defences are armour and speed and if it's speed is reduced to zero at any point, it is stationary.
The (fully resolved) results of infantry close combat attacks are sequential, bound by I steps and cannot be simultaneous.
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Re: GT related HTH/CC against vehicles question.

Postby Culven » Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:09 pm

I have always understood the rules to require Assault attacks to be made at Initiative. This is the general rule found in the Assault section of the rulebook, and there is nothing in the Vehicle rules to overwrite this. Additionally, the present tense verb "is" preceeding "immobilized" seems to indicate that the attacks will automatically hit if at the time of the attacks the vehicle is immobilized. Combined together, this would mean that a higher Initiative model can potentially make it so that the lower Initiative models automatically hit.

For those who may feel that the other speed to hit values overwrite this, I see nothing to support this idea. At best, one could argue that all applicable values apply. Thus, a vehicle which moved at Crusing Speed and is currently immobilized would be hit on a 4+ and automatically.
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Re: GT related HTH/CC against vehicles question.

Postby timewizard » Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:56 pm

I agree with both Ruffian and Culven. In the BRB, page 16 says that all of the models in the unit fire at the same time. This is under the Shooting phase rules and is true for units shooting.
In the Assault phase rules however, page 36 plainly states that a models Initiative characteristic detirmines who attacks first and the assault works through the models in initiative order. In theory, it is possible for one unit with high initiative to completely wipe out a target unit before they even get a chance to land a blow. Plus, as Ruffian brought out, hit, wounds and casualty removal are resolved at each step.
There is nothing in the rules to change this for assaults against vehicles, as Culven pointed out. If anything, this reinforces the point in the rules that "Infantry can pose a grave threat to vehicles if they get close enough." and that a stationary vehicle can be easily destroyed. This is why assaults are resolved against the rear armor and why combat resolution is taken in initiative order. If the first stage of an assault is 2 immobilized results, then the vehicle is immobilized and loses a weapon. If the vehicle is destroyed - wrecked it isn't attacked further to attempt to make it explode, it is destroyed and becomes a wreck. A wreck is terrain and terrain can't be attacked. All of this goes to show the vulnerability of vehicles in assault.
Admittedly, in the real world a tank moving at speed that loses a track would grind to a halt over time, but as has been pointed out ad infinitum 40K is not a real world simulation. The game mechanics tell us that vehicles that are immobilized (albeit due to terrain effects) come to an immediate halt. There is nothing in the rules to change that for combat results.
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