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how do YOU deepstrike? (plus a basing question)

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how do YOU deepstrike? (plus a basing question)

Postby Ranhothep » Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:53 pm

The other day I saw a game, where one player played a heavy deep strike army. For the first few turns he had 2+ units depp striking in. It became an issue, how do you resolve the arrival of the units. I was under the impression, that the fairest way would be to place all units (well, the first model only ofc) at the same time and then roll for scatter sequentially. Because otherwise it creates an advantage if you see whether your first unit didnt scatter out of range of its intended target thus your second unit can go deal with some other threat. What do you guys think?

the other question I have for you concerns bases. we know very well, that you can choose to use a larger base than supplied with your model. Often people make use of this rule for modelling purposes where their important models/characters enjoy a larger, usually more converted base. This can however become an issue in transport-based assault armies. Since you only need to be within 2" of your transport or access point with the back of your base, a larger base gives you a longer assault reach. Similarly, monstrous creatures can benefit from larger bases, since they block LOS, making the shieldwall tactic even better (tyranidzilla) So what are your thoughts on these matters? Im aware that there is probably no rules solution, but maybe you have had such arguments arise, so you can help out with some well established and proven house rules on these. Thanx in advance
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Postby Kyrolon » Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:25 pm

I don't know if there is an actual RAW answer to the deepstriking question because it revolves around an ambiguity in the reserves rule itself.

Among our group I think we would do it one unit at a time, as that's how we do reserves as well. We roll at the beginning of the turn to see what is coming on, and then bring it on in the movement phase moving one unit at a time. Deep strikers would do so whenever you decide to move them in sequence with your other units.

I could be wrong, but nothing I have seen clues us in to the order of movement of reserves.

~Dan
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Postby Pharon » Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:26 pm

We do it the same way here. Roll for reserves then place them one at a time.

As far as the bases go it's legal according to the rules. I'm personally guilty of making use of this myself but I don't do it to such an extreme that it becomes silly.

The only time I've seen an issue come up with this was a member of the group had his terminators mounted on 50mm bases in order to get a slight range advantage on his teleport homers. His opponent at the time sort of raised the objection but it didn't really go anywhere.
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Postby Spack » Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:34 pm

That's how we play it too.
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Postby Ranhothep » Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:58 pm

Pharon wrote:As far as the bases go it's legal according to the rules. I'm personally guilty of making use of this myself but I don't do it to such an extreme that it becomes silly.


where would you draw the line? Maybe if each unit included a sergeant/champion with a bigger base? I agree that here and there its ok, tho it still is a very BIG advantage imo. Since those few milimetres are often crucial and especially with the new cheap rhinos I can very well imagine the return of rhino rush (my initial inspiration for this came yesterday in a game against 5 rhino-mounted berserker squads) My friend would really be much better off if he only had those champions on 40mm bases on many ocasions. And as opposed to terminators who deep strike the bigger bases have no disadvantages that I could think of on normal infantry. it even helps them against blast markers, since theres a much lower chance that you can get more than a full model underneath it.

Thinking about deep strike and bases just now and being an old chaos veterna brought me to the following fiendish idea :twisted: :

Imagine I play my old Khorne flesh hounds or mounted daemonettes as undivided daemons. I happen to have them on cavalry bases. I summon them to an icon. the cavalry base in itself gives us quite a huge range boost allready. Now, I have to make a circle around the first model as per deep strike rules. So I place a cavalry model to side of the first model, then I place the next two models perpendicularly to the previous ones, thus forming a "circle" with just 4 models around the first. This would allow me to start a next circle with the 6th model, which I again would place in the same direction as the first one, gaining around 12.5" distance from the icon. What would you say to that? (This IS just a hypothetical question, just off the top of my head, since even so Im not impressed by the lousy demons :) )
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Re: how do YOU deepstrike? (plus a basing question)

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:51 pm

Ranhothep wrote:It became an issue, how do you resolve the arrival of the units. I was under the impression, that the fairest way would be to place all units (well, the first model only ofc) at the same time and then roll for scatter sequentially. Because otherwise it creates an advantage if you see whether your first unit didnt scatter out of range of its intended target thus your second unit can go deal with some other threat. What do you guys think?

i would expect to resolve DS one unit at a time (after rolling all Reserves and then combining units in any legal way, but before anything Moves) - afterall, the DS process non p84 makes no mention of having to resolve the process simultaneously for several units, and the normal way of doing things in 40K is that the actions of each unit are resolved sequentially with those of other units.

so i would place the first model of the first unit, roll scatter, place the remaning models in rings around the first (etc), then place the first model of the second unit, repeating the process. i would decide which order i was DS'ing the units in, and i would reveal them in turn as i placed the first model of each unit (unless we had agreed on full disclosure beforehand).

Ranhothep wrote:Since you only need to be within 2" of your transport or access point with the back of your base, a larger base gives you a longer assault reach.

there are both advantages and disadvantages to having a bigger base. you can be hit easier with a Blast weapon (etc), and your opponent has more lee-way when positioning the hole in the marker over the model. you also cannot fit through gaps that models on smaller bases could fit through, you need more room when Disembarking (for example, if a vehicle is partially surrounded and the passangers were forced to get out - more would be lost if they had bigger bases), and more models can get into B2B with you in CC. you also need more space to Deepstrike, and need to move further if you need to get "entirely within x inches" of an objective, etc.

as a rule of thumb, i wouldnt personally go more than 1 "size" base bigger than the norm for that model (for example, as a normal Marine is on a 25mm base, a "special" Veteran Sergeant could be on a 40mm base as a status symbol). i woudnt be as fussy when it comes to opponents' base choices, as long as they werent being incredibly silly (12" bases for normal models etc).

Ranhothep wrote:Similarly, monstrous creatures can benefit from larger bases, since they block LOS, making the shieldwall tactic even better (tyranidzilla)

dont forget that you only use the base when determining how much LOS is blocked by a model when that model is Locked in CC (at which point you use the area of the board occupied by the base and the Size Category of the tallest combatant).

an MC or Walker that isnt Locked will only block LOS to a WYSIWYG "model's eye view", using the actual physical size and shape of the model.

a 2" wide MC model on a 12" wide base ( :roll: ) acts only as a 2" wide 'LOS wall', not a 12" one, until that model gets into CC (and considering all the other Locked models will block LOS up to Size 3 at that point, it wont often make a big difference what size base the MC is on in this regard).

hope that helps :)

~ Tim
p.s. see p6 & 15 (on bases and gaps), and 7, 17, 20-21, 25-26, 64 & 69 (on LOS).
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Postby Angelwing » Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:57 pm

Large bases means you can surround them with more models.
Large bases wouldn't gain much advantage unless you were jumping out of an open topped transport or landraider.

Anyway, back to the questions.
Deepstrike, my group just deploys them one after the other.

monstrous creatures, and walkers dont block line of sight with bases. p20 3rd paragraph. You use model's eye view. A bigger base won't help them here.

Edit: gah! beaten by tim who has a better explanation!
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Re: how do YOU deepstrike? (plus a basing question)

Postby Ranhothep » Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:14 pm

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:there are both advantages and disadvantages to having a bigger base. you can be hit easier with a Blast weapon (etc), and your opponent has more lee-way when positioning the hole in the marker over the model. you also cannot fit through gaps that models on smaller bases could fit through, you need more room when Disembarking (for example, if a vehicle is partially surrounded and the passangers were forced to get out - more would be lost if they had bigger bases), and more models can get into B2B with you in CC. you also need more space to Deepstrike, and need to move further if you need to get "entirely within x inches" of an objective, etc.

as a rule of thumb, i wouldnt personally go more than 1 "size" base bigger than the norm for that model (for example, as a normal Marine is on a 25mm base, a "special" Veteran Sergeant could be on a 40mm base as a status symbol). i woudnt be as fussy when it comes to opponents' base choices, as long as they werent being incredibly silly (12" bases for normal models etc).


well, more often than not, bigger bases will actually safeguard you from additional casualties due to blast markers. I think the small marker cant even cover two whole 40mm bases, so there is never a chance to have two full hits, most often there will be one full and one at 4+ at best. I mentioned the point about deep striking as well, tho it is not relevant with units who dont have the deep strike option (I was generally talking about 1-2 models from a unit having bigger bases for the purposes of a transport-borne assault strategy. since usually it is just enough to contact the enemy with one model) The disembarking point is valid, but as I said, with say, only the champ having a bigger base, I wouldnt expect it to be as much of an issue. As to the remaining arguments, with all due respect, they seem to me rather occasional (tho still valid by all means) and not as negative in the bigger picture as the benefit of the bigger base in the outlined circumstances. So to sum up, would you consider it cheesy or a sign of powergaming if I disembarked my 5 berserker squads from their rhinos and all champs would have a 40mm base? (converted and scenic and all that schnick schnack included though)

Thanx for the pointer on the MCs, never played them myself, just heard those LOS obstruction claims second-hand. Good to know, its not that good after all.

Guys, Id be really interested in your oppinions on the outlined demon deep strike. Would any of you consider it wrong or cheaty in any way?
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Re: how do YOU deepstrike? (plus a basing question)

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:38 pm

Ranhothep wrote:well, more often than not, bigger bases will actually safeguard you from additional casualties due to blast markers. I think the small marker cant even cover two whole 40mm bases, so there is never a chance to have two full hits, most often there will be one full and one at 4+ at best.

i was thinking more about scattered Blast Markers/Large Blast Markers: if your base occupies a bigger %age of the board, then you are more likely to be hit when things start to scatter. i should have been clearer (yes, i realise that conversly, having a bigger base means less models fit under the Blasts etc). :)

Ranhothep wrote:As to the remaining arguments, with all due respect, they seem to me rather occasional (tho still valid by all means) and not as negative in the bigger picture as the benefit of the bigger base in the outlined circumstances.

oh i forgot one: bigger bases make it harder to fit a unit behind a piece of cover etc (as they take up more space).

Ranhothep wrote:So to sum up, would you consider it cheesy or a sign of powergaming if I disembarked my 5 berserker squads from their rhinos and all champs would have a 40mm base? (converted and scenic and all that schnick schnack included though)

no, not at all. if you were doing it for the ingame advantage (as opposed to simply for modelling purposes/looks), then i would call that being "competitive" at worst (which isnt a bad thing, in a competitive setting). now, if you put them on 12" long 1" wide bases, so they could get a first turn charge without moving the Rhino from its Deploylment Zone, then that is "cheese". ;)

Ranhothep wrote:Thanx for the pointer on the MCs, never played them myself, just heard those LOS obstruction claims second-hand. Good to know, its not that good after all.

the idea of a single Daemon Prince hiding a whole army often gets used as an argument against big bases, but yeah, it doesnt really work like that. :P

Ranhothep wrote:Guys, Id be really interested in your oppinions on the outlined demon deep strike. Would any of you consider it wrong or cheaty in any way?

i think i would expect you to get as many models in each "ring" as possible, even if that means the Hounds facing outwards from the first model (almost like an Chaos Star, lol). as to using the Cavalry bases at all? no, i wouldnt have a problem with that - neither does GW, it seems: http://uk.games-workshop.com/chaosspace ... allery/15/
(scroll down).

now, when the rumoured Daemon codex comes out, things might change (for example, you might not be able to use Flesh Hounds as Lesser Summoned Daemons anymore). but you can worry about that when it hapens.

hope that helps :)

~ Tim
Last edited by LordMalekTheRedKnight on Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby mattjgilbert » Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:44 pm

We play DSing by placing and resolving one unit at a time too.

I don't have any issue with larger bases as there are pros and cons as discussed. Bases should be enlarged for aesthetic reasons only and not to gain some kind of in-game advantage.
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Postby Ranhothep » Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:26 am

Thanx a lot for the input guys. The thing is, Matt, that I can hide my ingame advantage VERY well in a nicely converted and modelled base :D :D

Id like to get back to the idea of Malek's "chaos star". what makes you think one should place as many models as possible into a ring? Furthermore, since units of lesser demons are 5-20 in squads (and surprisingly I do own 15+ models of flesh hounds :P) if I placed a ring like you suggest around the first model, in a big unit, Id still have models left to place. How would i then continute with the placement as their bases would not touch at the outskirts? I still think square bases would be easiest placed in a domino/tetris-like "circle". Anyone else's thoughts?

P.S. I do agree with you Malek on the possible changes with the upcoming Demon Codex, but it still is quite some time away and I doubt they will somehow invalidate "Summoned lesser daemons" thus there will be allways a possibility to use cavalery-based models for them (DE warp beasts anyone?) Dont you think so too?
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Postby Spack » Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:02 am

Ranhothep wrote:Id like to get back to the idea of Malek's "chaos star". what makes you think one should place as many models as possible into a ring? Furthermore, since units of lesser demons are 5-20 in squads (and surprisingly I do own 15+ models of flesh hounds :P) if I placed a ring like you suggest around the first model, in a big unit, Id still have models left to place. How would i then continute with the placement as their bases would not touch at the outskirts? I still think square bases would be easiest placed in a domino/tetris-like "circle". Anyone else's thoughts?


Rulebook page 84, Deep Strike, states "Each circle should include as many models as will fit, and they may be facing in any direction". In order to fulfill the "as many models as will fit", cavalry bases would have to have a short end touching the existing models in the unit on the table, so forming a "star" effect.

Like this:

Image

(the grey lines are the sloped edges of the bases, hope it makes sense. Some of the bases touch the centre base only at the corner, but it's still making contact).

If you have enough models for a second ring, then some of those could then be placed sideways across the "tips of the star" forming T shapes, so long as you still fill the requirement to get as many models into the next ring, and so on.
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Postby Ranhothep » Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:27 am

ah yes, I checked p.84 for the amount of models in the rings. your picture makes perfect sense. This was my original idea. the final problem left now is that the cavalry bases actually dont fit like this as they are slightly smaller than the rules suggest (WHFB rulebook gives an exact size for them, but they just dont fit that size :wtf: (i demand a WTF smiley!!! :D) )

Anyways, for now, Id say that flesh hounds or mounted daemonettes have an advantage over other demon models due to these bases. This significantly helps them get into combat so thats why Id class the bigger base as an advantage overall, as into combat is where you wanna get them (at least I hope so)
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Postby Spack » Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:32 am

I made up my diagram assuming the 50mm x 25mm was right - I haven't actually testing the fit yet, although I will do tonight (albeit with bikes and rough riders, but it'll do for testing :P). I'll post some pics if I get chance.
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Postby Ranhothep » Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:35 am

We had this issue at one WHFB tourney where I charged cavalery with regular sized infantry and I was able to line up only 4 models against his 3, whereas it should be possible to have 5 against 3 due to the edges of bases touching. in reality it looked really very different and I didnt check the rulebook in time :( only after the game (we were a bit in a hurry)
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