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Moving in ruins with Jump Infantry

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Moving in ruins with Jump Infantry

Postby KInG » Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:19 pm

A rule came into question in the battle report tonight. I had never considered DL's interpretation of the wording before, as we'd always played it the way I read it.

If you are a Jump Pack , Jet Pack, or Speeder/Jetbike unit and you want to move from the open ground up into a ruin is the distance measured diagonally from where you are - up at an angle to where you want to be.
OR
Measure in plan view, along the same level, into the ruin, and then you can place the model on any level?

I was sure it was the first option, until I read the rules again for those types of units moving in ruins. I'll let you do the same and see what you think. I also haven't checked any FAQ about it either.
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Re: Moving in ruins with Jump Infantry

Postby timewizard » Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:21 pm

Looking at pages 98 and 99 yielded the following.

Main Rules pg. 98 wrote:A model moving on foot in a ruin therefore needs 3"of its movement to go up or down a level.


This is from the last paragraph on the page. It also discussed the dice rolls that are needed to combine horizontal and vertical movement. This covers the basic movement of Infantry models in ruins, and is depicted in the photo on the top right of page 99.

Jump Units, Jet Pack Units, Jetbikes and Skimmers have their own section on page 99.

Main Rules pg. 99 wrote:All surviving Jump and Jetbike models are then simply placed within 12" of their starting point, including on a different level of a ruin. Surviving Jet Pack models are placed within 6"of their starting point instead.


Since these units are "...simply placed within..." a certain distance of their starting point, the direction could be horizontally, vertically, or even diagonally onto another level of a ruin.

And this time I triple checked, and found no FAQs on this. ;)
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Re: Moving in ruins with Jump Infantry

Postby KInG » Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:32 am

you agree with how we do it then.. Darklighter will learn my rules are the right rules eventually :)
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Re: Moving in ruins with Jump Infantry

Postby timewizard » Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:42 am

Looking at the rules it seems the only way to do it.
It's because jump units in general move over terrain as part of their move.
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Re: Moving in ruins with Jump Infantry

Postby mattjgilbert » Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:07 am

I think they've always moved this way. It would get too complicated to start working out exact vertical height too I think.
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Re: Moving in ruins with Jump Infantry

Postby Darklighter » Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:14 am

haha even in these few post where people think they are talking about the same interpritaion it's become unclear as how they use the rule.... My use of the rule is if a Jump/jet unit can move over a building/mountain floor to floor it's full movment with all the hight added (reguardles of how high it is) for free why can it not then just stop mid (the same) flight path at the top of said terrain feature?
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Re: Moving in ruins with Jump Infantry

Postby KInG » Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:03 pm

Correct.. Matt what u talking about u just disagreed.
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Re: Moving in ruins with Jump Infantry

Postby mattjgilbert » Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:28 pm

I agreed with what I thought TW had said.

It's option 2 from your OP. Otherwise you'd always have to calculate height when they jumped over anything (for consistency).
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Re: Moving in ruins with Jump Infantry

Postby timewizard » Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:13 pm

I think we have some confusion here. I think that the jump units (and I'll lump them all together here for simplicity) could move diagonally into ruins. It's a bit convoluted and confusing though.

In general, jump units move over any and all terrain freely. You simply measure the distance horizontally, then move the unit that distance. A DT is only taken if it begins or ends its move in difficult or dangerous terrain. So far, so good.

If there is a high piece of terrain, the jump unit can move over it, again with no problem.

In the case of buildings, if the building is classified as impassable, jump units can be placed on top of it if they can actually fit there as per page 47. Again, there is no specific way to measure this move mentioned in the rules and it has been understood that you measure horizontally, and if that measurement ends at the top of the impassable building (or impassable terrain) then the jump unit can be placed there after passing a dangerous terrain test.

As for the roof (or battlement) of a building, the rules allow jump units to move there as well.

Main Rules pg. 95 wrote:Jump and Jet Pack Units
If their move is sufficient, Jump and Jet Pack units can move directly to or from a building's battlements in their Movement phase, even in the absence of external ladders or Access Points. Battlements are not difficult terrain in this case.


Now again here, there is no mention of how the measurement for the move is made, so you would fall back to the normal movement convention which is to measure horizontally and then place the unit where it would end the move, even if that were on the top of the roof or on the battlement.

Ruins however, are different. That's why they have their own section and their own specific rules. As I quoted above, the rules say to place the jump unit within 12" of it's starting point, including on a different level. There are no FAQs on whether this is measured horizontally and then the jump unit is moved vertically to whatever level it wishes, or whether it is measured diagonally from the starting point up into the ruin. The closest we have is this from the 5th edition rules.

jetbikes in ruins.jpg

You can see that the jumpbike's move is clearly being measured diagonally up to another level within the ruin.

Now I know full well that we don't use rules from previous editions, but the picture or diagram shows that jump units moving in ruins are clearly an exception to the way they would normally move. And I believe this is backed up by the wording in the 6th edition rule that they are, "...simply placed within 12" of their starting point..." and I think this is because they are not moving over the terrain as normal, but in the specific case of a ruin, they are moving within the terrain. And that I think is a significant difference and an exception to the way their move is normally measured.

For these reasons, I believe that a jump unit moving into a ruin, could, and in some instances should, have it's move measured diagonally from its starting point either up, down or on the same level within the ruin.
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Re: Moving in ruins with Jump Infantry

Postby KInG » Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:39 am

Mmmmm so no definitive answer but a good examination of the rules. Seems like we'll have to house rule it. My house my rules. Lol

Actually I'm happy to combine the two as TW has suggested. Only when moving onto floors inside ruins, not the top floor, then measure diagonally. If landing on the top of ruins, buildings, battlements, impassible then we'll measure horizontally like DL does it. Sorted!! ;)
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Re: Moving in ruins with Jump Infantry

Postby mattjgilbert » Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:31 am

I suspect most people do it that way Nige anyway without really thinking about it.
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Re: Moving in ruins with Jump Infantry

Postby timewizard » Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:31 pm

The only part I disagree with KInG is the top floor of a ruin.
That floor is still a part of the ruin, and a jump unit moving there would still be moving within the ruin.
It would still get a cover save there because it is still in the ruin.

For example, you have a jump unit (with a 12" max move) just outside a ruin. The ruin is 9" tall and 7" across.
If the jump unit wanted to move to the other side of the ruin, or across it, you measure 12" horizontally and move the unit across. No DT test is needed or taken.
If, however you want to place the unit on the top floor of the ruin, you would just measure diagonally up to the top floor of the ruin, take the DT test, and place all surviving models up there.
That is the difference between moving over the ruin and moving within the ruin.

If the top floor of the ruin was instead classified as impassable terrain, then it is not part of the ruin, and a jump unit moving there would not be moving into the ruin, but rather over the ruin. In that case, you would measure horizontally and place the models, again after they survive a DT test.

Sounds silly, but that's what the rules indicate is the procedure. That's why I don't designate the top floor of a ruin as impassable. It just causes too much confusion.
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Re: Moving in ruins with Jump Infantry

Postby KInG » Tue Jan 14, 2014 5:34 pm

Yeh, impassable top level ruins :( weird.. but I think its less confusing to have the top floors and battlements all acting in the same way, otherwise you're gonna have one rule for landing on top of ruins and on top of all other stuff.
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Re: Moving in ruins with Jump Infantry

Postby timewizard » Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:29 pm

But the rules for ruins, buildings and battlements are different.
That's why they are in different sections.

The rules on page 95 cover reaching the roof of a building. This is done via external ladders or through the interior of the building.

Say you have a unit of infantry 7" away from the access point an unoccupied bastion. The battlement of the bastion is about 5 1/2 inches high (I measured it, don't bother to check! ;) )
The infantry can move to the battlement in one Movement phase.
First it moves to within 2" of the access point and since the bastion is unoccupied the unit can move directly to the battlement. This is allowed even though the unit in actuality moved 12 and 1/2 inches (7" to the bastion horizontally and then 5 1/2" vertically). The unit can now shoot (counting as having moved of course) from the battlement.

Now try moving the same unit into a ruin 7" away with one floor 3" high and the roof 5 1/2" high to match the fortification.
First off, the infantry unit can only move 6" so it can't even get into the ruin in one turn. The next turn, it must make a difficult terrain test, but even a roll of '6' would be insufficient to got to the top floor (1" to get into the ruin, 3" to go up one floor, 2 1/2" to go to the top floor = 6 1/2"). So to move from 7" away from a ruin, it would take 3 moves to reach the top floor. Now, with some good rolling, the unit could move the 6", then run, then the next Movement phase get to the top floor. This is still considerably different from the building since it take 2 turns to get to the top of the ruin, and in one of those turns shooting is lost to the run.

If instead, you declare the top floor of the ruin to be impassable, then infantry could never go on the top floor of the ruin. And it would make no sense to declare it as simply a roof. To do so would negate the 4+ cover save for a ruin that a unit would receive for being placed there.

It is far better to simply let ruins be ruins and accept that they have separate and special rules for movement within them.
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Re: Moving in ruins with Jump Infantry

Postby KInG » Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:38 pm

I suppose you can explain it simply by saying, landing on the top of a ruin requires a lot more care during movement, therefore it slows you down and requires you to move differently. The danger of the type of terrain means moving slower and just not simply 'dropping in' onto a perfectly flat surface with no hazards.
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