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Necron WBB, phase out and Veil of Darkness

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Necron WBB, phase out and Veil of Darkness

Postby timewizard » Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:37 pm

This hasn't yet occurred but the way my friend uses VoD I suppose it could, so I just want to get an idea of how you would play it.
Say I am playing against a Necron force consisting of; Lord with Veil of Darkness attached to a unit of 11 warriors, another unit of 11 warriors and 2 heavy destroyers. Phase out is 6 models.
On the first turn, the Necron player uses VoD. His lord unfortunately scatters on top of one of my models, so according to deep strike rules he suffers a mishap. He rolls a 5 on the mishap table so the lord and the unit he is with go into reserve. He moves and fires with his remaining units.
On my turn I shoot at his unit of warriors and take out a few. I then assault and wipe out the rest of the warriors. I would figure that the warriors cannot attempt WBB because there is no other Necron warrior within 6" (they are now in reserve). So...
1-Does the Necron army now phase out? All that is left on the table is 2 heavy destroyers. or...
2-Does the Necron Lord and 11 Warriors in reserve count against phase out?
3-Would the Necron player be allowed to roll for reserves at the beginning of the turn, place the lord and warriors within 6" of the downed warriors (if they roll to come on) and then attempt WBB? The rules say WBB is attempted at the start of the Necron turn, while rolling for reserves takes place at the start of the movement phase.
4-Can the Necron Lord and the unit of warriors even arrive using deep strike rules? The VoD is a piece of wargear that allows them to move using deep strike rules. So would they arrive anywhere on the tabletop or would they have to come in from the Necron players table edge and wait 1 more turn to use VoD?

What do you think?

TW
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Re: Necron WBB, phase out and Veil of Darkness

Postby killmaimburn » Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:47 pm

1+2 no, the errata (and possibly later printings say "25% or less of its original number, in other words 75% of its models rounding fractions up are destroyed" IF I was DSing monoliths of spare troops onto the table and you kill the 2 basica small troops who start on, would you auto win?(thats the question your asking, if the mishap had been "destroyed". then yes they would phase out as they are " destroyed" ;) )

4- This is a big battle on warseer about gat e of infinity and whether they can deepstrike, as they don't have the deepstrike special rule, but do roll on the table, I haven't been keeping up with the thread.. but heres a link http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthrea ... e+reserves (oh you've already posted in it :oops: )

I'll read up a bit more about 3 and 4 and try to make up my mind (time to put the kids to sleep)
(BTW 3 sounds like ruffians speciality about sub split timings)
Last edited by killmaimburn on Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:50 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby timewizard » Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:59 pm

Thanks KMB, I think you are right about 1 and 2, makes sense. Numbers 3 and 4 are the sticky ones. Good night to the little ones :) , look forward to hearing your thoughts later.

TW

EDIT: Re the Gate of Infinity thread. Yes, I had posted a response over there, but due to recent events, I am pretty much through posting on Warseer for the time being. Rather that try for 2 issues in one thread, I'll start another rules question discussion on deep strike mishaps. Cheers for noticing! :D
Last edited by timewizard on Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Angelwing » Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:03 pm

3. no, its WWB first, then movement. The WWB rule states that it is done at the start of the turn. The returned model then '...moves and fights normally..'
Also, the VOD rule says it is used at the start of the movement phase.

4. Yes and no.
YES: A lord with the VOD can use it at the start of the movement phase instead of moving normally. Coming on from reserve is a normal move, and the VOD allows a deep strike instead of a normal move. The delayed mishap result effectively puts the VOD unit back into the queue and it would arrive as it would before.
NO: because it doesn't actually have the deep strike rule, so they would have to walk on their table edge. It could be argued that they would have to come through the monolith portal (if you have one in play), but that doesn't mention attached characters.

My opinion and gut instinct: Yes. Because the simplest solution to a 3rd ed codex interacting with 5th ed rules weirdness is to take the mishap table word 'Delayed' and accept that due to whatever background reason strangeness the VOD move got stuck somewhere and requires a successful reserve roll to become unstuck.
Also because, quite frankly the necrons need all the help they can get.
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Postby jlong05 » Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:40 am

As a long time Necron player I will try to provide answers to the best of my ability.

timewizard wrote:1-Does the Necron army now phase out? All that is left on the table is 2 heavy destroyers. or...

No. Units in reserve are not counted as destroyed and therefore continue to count in the Necron totals.

timewizard wrote:2-Does the Necron Lord and 11 Warriors in reserve count against phase out?

See above #1.

timewizard wrote:3-Would the Necron player be allowed to roll for reserves at the beginning of the turn, place the lord and warriors within 6" of the downed warriors (if they roll to come on) and then attempt WBB? The rules say WBB is attempted at the start of the Necron turn, while rolling for reserves takes place at the start of the movement phase.

No. Necron WBB is determined at the time the unit is destroyed. As no other warrior model was present on the table all warrior casualties must be removed then. Without an available Monolith to gate them through, the warrior models woudl be destroyed.

timewizard wrote:4-Can the Necron Lord and the unit of warriors even arrive using deep strike rules? The VoD is a piece of wargear that allows them to move using deep strike rules. So would they arrive anywhere on the tabletop or would they have to come in from the Necron players table edge and wait 1 more turn to use VoD?

This is tricky, however I would argue(without mind you reading Warseer as I could care less what they say) that yes the Lord and the attached warriors would continue to complete their move(deepstrike) as that was the last action they had taken. The wargear provided the deepstrike ability which occurred in a mishap, however that ability of the wargear was not lost due to the unit not having the ability. It was granted by the wargear. As the Lord is attached and would remain so until after the move was completed, the unit would remain in 'reserve' until the deepstrike move could be completed.

These are of course simply my opinion and mean absolutely crap in an actual game circumstance, but that would be the way I would play and expect it played against me.
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:32 am

Old rules and new rules dont always see eye to eye. :(

Personally, I would allow them to DS, or maybe even walk on if you wanted to (maybe you should say straight away which option you intend to use).

Really though, considering that when VoD was written, what we now call a Mishap lead to total destruction of the Lord + Unit automatically, you should be happy with whatever you can get off the Mishap table. ;)

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Postby ruffian4 » Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:59 pm

Agreed that necrons in reserve are counted as "alive" for phase out purposes (incidently, this is useful in proving the reality of model/unit breakdown).

For the crons to be able to wbb, they need a lord (or whatever) on the table at the start of the turn.
Reserves are not rolled for and they do not enter play until the beginning of the movement phase.

You can get into problems if you do
"not understand turn stratification"
also known as
"nuts"

Even though "the start/beginning of the turn/phase" seems a little odd, as potentially multiple things can happen at that point (see ig orders and shooting), it's ok as long as everything required to happen "at the start" is done before everything else.
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Postby timewizard » Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:17 am

Ahhhh! Now I see. This is a classic case of having to to something "Before Units Move"
as in "I needed the reserves to come in for WBB but the BUM got in the way."
or "Having to BUM wiped out a whole unit of destroyers, and the Lord was no help at all."
:twisted:
But seriously Ruffian, thanks! :D
The order then is;
Roll for WBB, ineligible units (or models) are removed, then roll for reserves since this is now the beginning of the movement phase, then move any or all units.

That clears up a few items!
Cheers mate!
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Postby ruffian4 » Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:46 am

No probs!

Of course BUM can be troublesome for a cron player, BUTT it is possible to get around, though that is POO (personal opinion only).
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