LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:I seem to remember a similar situation under 3rd ed...? (or something)

Anyway, was this "clarification" even needed?
P95, Deepstrike Mishaps, "Delayed" states that the unit counts as Destroyed if it hasnt arrived before the game ends. What else actually allows a unit to be off table (and not just "inside a transport so physically placed on a side table, while existing ingame" etc)?

(and even if there is something that allows this, it would have been better to FAQ whatever rule that is to explain that absent units count as Destroyed, rather than add a general rule)

~ Tim

The crux of the problem lies in the wording in many sections of the rules. In the transport section, the rules tell us the models are "...removed from the table and placed aside...". It does the same thing for occupying buildings where when models occupy a building they "...are removed from the table..." and even the Space Marine Librarian GoI rule that says the Librarian and a unit he might be joined to "...are removed from the tabletop...".

Now before anyone gets in an uproar, yes I only quoted portions of all these rules, but not to take them out of context, it is only to illustrate the problem with the following;

Q: Do units off of the table at the end of a game count as
destroyed for kill point purposes? (p91)
A: Yes.

The key here IMO is to look at the page number reference at the end of the question, in this case page 91. In the BRB on page 91 we see 3 mission types and the reference to kill points in one of them. So is this FAQ addressing units that are embarked or in buildings? Probably not, it is merely clarifying the issue of awarding kill points.

An example to back it up is from the Necron Codex which on 18 says, "Any {Necron} Warriors that do not get deployed by the end of the game count as having been destroyed for the purposes of calculating victory points." But the Annihilation mission doesn't use victory points to determine victory, it uses kill points. So this updated FAQ tells us that those Necron Warriors would indeed give up kill points.

The other example is in the BRB itself on page 95 under the 'delayed' deep strike mishap. The unit goes back in reserves and if the unit is still in reserve when the game ends it counts as destroyed. Again, the FAQ affirms that the unit would indeed give up kill points.

So even though the units in transports and buildings have been "removed from the table" for model placement purposes, at the end of the game they are not "off the table" for kill point purposes. Looking through the rulebook, the only reference I can find to units being off the table is in the reserve section, the last paragraph under rolling for reserves on page 94 where we are told we can't delay rolling for reserves and can't keep them "...hanging around off-table until you decide you need them!" This would indicate that only units in reserve are considered to be "off the table".

Ruffian's point is that an errata or FAQ is supposed to clarify a muddy rule, not throw more mud onto it. Particularly in light of previous discussion about whether units in transports were on the table or not. But for this FAQ, and for kill point purposes, I think that there is a difference between a unit that has been "removed from the table" to embark or occupy and one that is "off the table" waiting to enter play.

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:
P95, Deepstrike Mishaps, "Delayed" states that the unit counts as Destroyed if it hasnt arrived before the game ends. What else actually allows a unit to be off table (and not just "inside a transport so physically placed on a side table, while existing ingame" etc)?

ruffian4 wrote:Methinks this whole shebang is too far gone to actually be fixed ...

Spack wrote:Possibly evens, or they wouldn't take bets