Login

Username:


Password:


Remember me



Forgot Password?




 Merchandise




Ohh pants.. need a ruffian, "Deployment"

Discussion of rules in Warhammer 40K - use for existing rules only, for discussing new rules or changes/alternatives use the Rules Development forum

Moderator: mattjgilbert

Re: Ohh pants.. need a ruffian, "Deployment"

Postby ruffian4 » Tue May 18, 2010 6:08 pm

timewizard wrote:
BANE wrote:@ Ruffian4, could you explain what you mean by this?

That hits the deck pretty quickly, though, as you don't necessarily have to place a unit on the table for it to be deployed.


You can deploy a unit in a transport. So the unit is not on the table, the transport is. However, the unit can still interact with the game if allowed by it's rules and the transport's abilities.

Sorted! :D
killmaimburn wrote:If this is a masked ball, then the other bits of him are off spiking the teachers punch.


DEATH WATCH DEATH RATTLE DEATHS DOOR AINT I DIED ENOUGH BEFORE?
User avatar
ruffian4
4th dan imbecile
Sorceror
 
Posts: 3065
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:00 am
Location: Twat hq.

Re: Ohh pants.. need a ruffian, "Deployment"

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Tue May 18, 2010 7:23 pm

Doesnt this line of thinking open up a loophole in DoW? (emphasis added)

Troops and HQ units that can infiltrate, can do so, as
long as at the end of deployment the player still has
a maximum of one HQ and two Troops units on the
table
.


Couldnt you deploy a Tac squad, their Rhino and an IC, split the squad and put half of it in the Rhino, and still satisfy the above rule? ("Ha-ha! The 3rd troop unit isnt 'on the table', its in the rhino!")

Or am I imagining things?

~ Tim
8O :D OMG - Im a Dad - of THREE!! :D 8O
:) I am "LMTRK" on The Wizards Community and MTG Salvation
User avatar
LordMalekTheRedKnight
Lord Marmite
Lord General
 
Posts: 4876
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:00 am
Location: Stamford, Lincs, UK

Re: Ohh pants.. need a ruffian, "Deployment"

Postby timewizard » Tue May 18, 2010 7:33 pm

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:Doesnt this line of thinking out up a loophole in DoW? (emphasis added)

Troops and HQ units that can infiltrate, can do so, as
long as at the end of deployment the player still has
a maximum of one HQ and two Troops units on the
table
.


Couldnt you deploy a Tac squad, their Rhino and an IC, split the squad and put half of it in the Rhino, and still satisfy the above rule? ("Ha-ha! The 3rd troop unit isnt 'on the table', its in the rhino!")

Or am I imagining things?

~ Tim


In the DoW rule, the example says; "In his half of the table, player B then deploys a unit of Troops, already embarked into their dedicated transport (which is his second unit of troops)."

But it is another clear example of how the term "on the table" is poorly used and/or explained.
"I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire." - Erwin Rommel
User avatar
timewizard
Master of Chronomancy
Field Commander
 
Posts: 5896
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:00 am
Location: (TWAT Colonial Outpost) in the eastern USA
Medals: 11
Gold Wreath (1) Gold (1) Silver Wreath (1) Bronze (2) Painting Entrant (6)
Blog: View Blog (2)

Re: Ohh pants.. need a ruffian, "Deployment"

Postby mattjgilbert » Tue May 18, 2010 7:36 pm

You are imagining things (or you have a death wish to enter the jubilex/ruffian world of on-the-table-off-the-table where only madness lies).
User avatar
mattjgilbert
BladeDancer
Daemon Prince
 
Posts: 5847
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:00 am
Location: Worthing, UK

Re: Ohh pants.. need a ruffian, "Deployment"

Postby cgra1 » Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:34 am

Ive read through this post and Im still utterly confused. Can someone answer as simply as possible

If I am running a 10 man Tact squad with a Razorback that I choose to outflank (With Khans abilities) do I roll 1 dice for the Tact squad and 1 dice for the Razorback?

If I want to combat squad the unit can I bring them (Deploy) on as a 10 man unit and then choose to combat squad them from that point onwards, and have 5 of them jump into the back of their dedicated razorback?

Thanks
User avatar
cgra1
Newbie
 
Posts: 820
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:00 am

Re: Ohh pants.. need a ruffian, "Deployment"

Postby timewizard » Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:12 pm

You place the tac squad with their dedicated transport (the razorback) in reserve. When you place them in reserve, you must declare if the razorback is empty or carrying the tac squad, and it sounds like you want the squad to be embarked.

If they transport is carrying the squad then you roll for both of them together.

Once you have rolled for the unit (the razorback and the tac squad) you can decide if you want to combat squad the tac squad since this decision is made when the unit is deployed. Once that decision is made, the 2 combat squads are treated as separate units from that point on.

You now cannot place 2 separate units in the razorback so you deploy the razorback with one combat squad as per the outflank rules. After that, you then deploy the other combat squad, again according to the outflank rules.

You now end up with a razorback with a combat squad embarked and a separate combat squad deployed on the table. They can even end up outflanking from different table edges.

Hope that helps.
"I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire." - Erwin Rommel
User avatar
timewizard
Master of Chronomancy
Field Commander
 
Posts: 5896
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:00 am
Location: (TWAT Colonial Outpost) in the eastern USA
Medals: 11
Gold Wreath (1) Gold (1) Silver Wreath (1) Bronze (2) Painting Entrant (6)
Blog: View Blog (2)

Re: Ohh pants.. need a ruffian, "Deployment"

Postby Baragash » Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:28 pm

timewizard wrote:You place the tac squad with their dedicated transport (the razorback) in reserve. When you place them in reserve, you must declare if the razorback is empty or carrying the tac squad, and it sounds like you want the squad to be embarked.


Tac Squad = 10 men
Razorback = 6 man capacity

Surely you can't declare it's carrying a squad it can't hold?
My Hobby Blog!
My Painting & Modelling Blog!
Gallery
"The Emperor is obviously not a dictator, he's a couch."
Starbuck: "Why can't we use the starboard launch bays?"
Engineer: "Because it's a gift shop!"
User avatar
Baragash
Sorceror
Sorceror
 
Posts: 1885
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:00 am
Location: London, UK
Blog: View Blog (21)

Re: Ohh pants.. need a ruffian, "Deployment"

Postby ruffian4 » Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:37 pm

timewizard wrote:You place the tac squad with their dedicated transport (the razorback) in reserve. When you place them in reserve, you must declare if the razorback is empty or carrying the tac squad, and it sounds like you want the squad to be embarked.

To place the (10 man) tac squad in the razor back would be illegal (not enough capacity).

As the unit combat squads on deployment (ie moving on, or being moved on) this would make your reserves structure illegal, before they arrived from reserve.

Therefore, a razorback in reserve cannot transport anything at all, if the unit (which it is at this point) numbers more than 6, the 10 man tac squad cannot occupy it.
killmaimburn wrote:If this is a masked ball, then the other bits of him are off spiking the teachers punch.


DEATH WATCH DEATH RATTLE DEATHS DOOR AINT I DIED ENOUGH BEFORE?
User avatar
ruffian4
4th dan imbecile
Sorceror
 
Posts: 3065
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:00 am
Location: Twat hq.

Re: Ohh pants.. need a ruffian, "Deployment"

Postby timewizard » Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:40 pm

Oops, good catch Baragash! I was thinking rhino even as I was typing razorback! :oops:
And agree with Ruffian as well.

If you take a ten man squad with a razorback, you could split the tac squad into combat squads and then deploy the razorback on the table with a combat squad embarked and th other combat squad deployed elsewhere. But this is limited to normal deployment.

However, if you put a tac squad and its dedicated razorback in reserve, you must place the razorback there empty because it cannot hold 10 models. The razorback and the tac squad would then be rolled for, and possibly arrive, separately.
"I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire." - Erwin Rommel
User avatar
timewizard
Master of Chronomancy
Field Commander
 
Posts: 5896
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:00 am
Location: (TWAT Colonial Outpost) in the eastern USA
Medals: 11
Gold Wreath (1) Gold (1) Silver Wreath (1) Bronze (2) Painting Entrant (6)
Blog: View Blog (2)

Re: Ohh pants.. need a ruffian, "Deployment"

Postby cgra1 » Fri Jul 16, 2010 2:18 pm

So is that Yes then??? :?

Roll 1 dice for the Tac squad- roll to see what side they come on....

Roll 1 dice for Razorback - roll to see what side it comes on.......

If they both come on the same side I can split the tac into combat squads and walk them on

Razorback drives on.

Next turn combat squad jumbs into razorback and zooms away... :lol:
User avatar
cgra1
Newbie
 
Posts: 820
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:00 am

Re: Ohh pants.. need a ruffian, "Deployment"

Postby ruffian4 » Fri Jul 16, 2010 2:34 pm

Yes!

The tac squad is a unit until it deploys (moves onto the table), so both (what will turn out to be) combat squads arrive together on the same flank, but can deploy seperately.

The razorback is only tied into the reserve rolls/which flank, if it is occupied, which in this case, it cannot be.

So the reserves structure would read 1 unit of infantry arriving by outflank and an (unnocupied) razorback, also arriving from the flanks.
The 1 unit can then combat squad (forming 2 units) and move onto the table seperately.
killmaimburn wrote:If this is a masked ball, then the other bits of him are off spiking the teachers punch.


DEATH WATCH DEATH RATTLE DEATHS DOOR AINT I DIED ENOUGH BEFORE?
User avatar
ruffian4
4th dan imbecile
Sorceror
 
Posts: 3065
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:00 am
Location: Twat hq.

Re: Ohh pants.. need a ruffian, "Deployment"

Postby cgra1 » Fri Jul 16, 2010 2:39 pm

Hurrah.....

This is exactly as I played it...


Thanks guys
User avatar
cgra1
Newbie
 
Posts: 820
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:00 am

Re: Ohh pants.. need a ruffian, "Deployment"

Postby timewizard » Fri Jul 16, 2010 3:05 pm

ruffian4 wrote:The tac squad is a unit until it deploys (moves onto the table), so both (what will turn out to be) combat squads arrive together on the same flank, but can deploy seperately.

The razorback is only tied into the reserve rolls/which flank, if it is occupied, which in this case, it cannot be.

So the reserves structure would read 1 unit of infantry arriving by outflank and an (unnocupied) razorback, also arriving from the flanks.
The 1 unit can then combat squad (forming 2 units) and move onto the table seperately.


I believe this to be 80% correct.

The razorback and the tac squad are 2 separate units. They are therefore rolled to arrive from reserves separately. Once they arrive however, things are a bit different.

For any normal unit, you roll to arrive from reserve. Once the unit arrives, you deploy it by either;
moving it onto the table or,
rolling for table edge if outflanking or,
placing 1 model the rolling for scatter for deep strike.

This procedure is the same for each unit that has arrived from reserve.

For a tac squad in reserve, we know that it cannot be split into combat squads when placed in reserve. So the entire 10 man unit is rolled for to arrive from reserve. Once this happens however, you can decide to split the tac squad into 2 five man combat squads. Codex:Space Marines is clear that the decision to split tac squads is made when the unit is deployed and further, "If you decide to split a unit into combat squads, then each combat squad is treated as a separate unit for all game purposes from that point." All game purposes would include deployment, moving onto the table, outflanking, deep striking, etc.

So for a tac squad arriving from reserve you would;
roll for the entire unit to arrive from reserve then,
decide to split it into 2 combat squads then,
each squad would deploy as follows;
if normal arrival, move one squad onto the table then move the other onto the table (in whatever order you choose) or,
pick one combat squad, roll for table edge and deploy it, pich another combat squad, roll for table edge and deploy it, etc. or,
if the squads can deep strike, pick one, place a model on the table, roll for scatter, etc, then pick the next, repeat.

The important thing to remember for splitting combat squads is that the decision to split the squads is made when they are deployed and that once that decision is made, they are separate units from that point on. The decision has to be made before either of the units is moved onto the table or before they outflank or deep strike.

When units are in reserve, first you roll for the units to arrive. Then, "Once all of the units have been rolled for, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described later." {emphasis mine}

So to summarize, I have a 10 man tac squad. I choose to place them in reserve. They are going to use their 'outflank' special rule.
On turn 2 I roll for the unit to arrive and it does.
I decide that I am going to split the tac squad into 2 combat squads. I decide which models are going into each squad.
I pick one squad, roll for table edge and move the squad on. I then pick the other squad, roll for table edge and move it on.

It is because they are separate units and at which point they become separate that makes this the way they are deployed.
"I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire." - Erwin Rommel
User avatar
timewizard
Master of Chronomancy
Field Commander
 
Posts: 5896
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:00 am
Location: (TWAT Colonial Outpost) in the eastern USA
Medals: 11
Gold Wreath (1) Gold (1) Silver Wreath (1) Bronze (2) Painting Entrant (6)
Blog: View Blog (2)

Re: Ohh pants.. need a ruffian, "Deployment"

Postby cgra1 » Fri Jul 16, 2010 3:56 pm

Ok, .... that I like because it makes for more tactical advantages as i have 3 chances to roll for the crucial side.
(When I played this game they all came on on the wrong side :roll: )
User avatar
cgra1
Newbie
 
Posts: 820
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:00 am

Re: Ohh pants.. need a ruffian, "Deployment"

Postby ruffian4 » Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:04 pm

It's a good argument, TW!

Imo, however, the thing that trips it up, is p94, outflank, 3rd sentence.

"When an outflanking unit arrives from reserve, the controlling player rolls a die, on a 1-2 the unit..."

The unit that "arrives" from reserve is the entire tac squad (only 1 roll was made to see if "it" arrived).
So, you only get 1 roll as to which flank it (and eventually they) can arrive on.
They combat squad by deploying (moving onto the table).

Tbh, I find a lot of this type of argument to seem increasingly difficult, as it seems a technicality that may not intended (see shrike) and only makes sense by accident.

Am I getting jaded??? :wink:
killmaimburn wrote:If this is a masked ball, then the other bits of him are off spiking the teachers punch.


DEATH WATCH DEATH RATTLE DEATHS DOOR AINT I DIED ENOUGH BEFORE?
User avatar
ruffian4
4th dan imbecile
Sorceror
 
Posts: 3065
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:00 am
Location: Twat hq.

PreviousNext



Return to 40K Rules




 Social Links