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Ohh pants.. need a ruffian, "Deployment"

Discussion of rules in Warhammer 40K - use for existing rules only, for discussing new rules or changes/alternatives use the Rules Development forum

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Re: Ohh pants.. need a ruffian, "Deployment"

Postby timewizard » Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:28 pm

ruffian4 wrote: It's a good argument, TW!

Thank you! We do seem to have only good ones! :wink:

ruffian4 wrote:Imo, however, the thing that trips it up, is p94, outflank, 3rd sentence.

Good point, but I can counter it! See below.

ruffian4 wrote:"When an outflanking unit arrives from reserve, the controlling player rolls a die, on a 1-2 the unit..."

Yes indeed. However, you have to take the entire process into consideration. Yes, the Outflank rule says that ^ but that follows the rules about rolling for reserves and arriving from reserves.
Under Rolling for Reserves, look at the 2nd paragraph; "Once all of the units have been rolled for, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described later."
The unit that is being deployed can be moved onto the table as normal, or can outflank, or can deep strike depending on the unit's rules.
So I roll for all my reserves. Then I pick one unit (let's say a tac squad) and deploy it. Following Codex:Space Marines, when I deploy the unit I can decide to split it. So I decide to split it. They are now, from that point on, 2 separate units. Now I select one unit to move onto the table. It is now arriving from reserves using its outflank rule, so I roll to see which table edge it arrives on. Then I select the 2nd unit, and so on.

ruffian4 wrote:The unit that "arrives" from reserve is the entire tac squad (only 1 roll was made to see if "it" arrived).
So, you only get 1 roll as to which flank it (and eventually they) can arrive on.
They combat squad by deploying (moving onto the table).

They problem here is that outflanking, like deep striking is a type of deployment, not a means of arrival.
First we roll to see if a unit arrives, then we deploy it. This is 2 separate actions. Splitting into combat squads is a decision that must fall between the two.

Okay Ruffian, I just spent some time in the 'reading room' where I (among other things :mrgreen: ) read, re-read and the read again pages 94 and 95 and I have to (grudgingly) admit that you may have something here.
I was going to hinge my argument on the deep strike rule pointing out how it is the same as outflank, but in fact, it is not.
When units deep strike, the rule says to roll for arrival as per the reserves rule then deploy them as follows. This works fine for combat squading like this;
Select a unit in reserve that will use its deep strike rule.
Roll for arrival of the unit.
Decide to split the unit into combat squads as it deploys.
Deploy first one squad and then the other as per the deep strike rules.
This is because you could not place 2 units on the same spot and then roll for scatter for each one.

But the fly in the ointment comes with the wording for outflank that you cited, so it would appear that for outflanking units this would be how it works;
Select a unit in reserve that will use its outflank rule.
Roll for arrival of the unit.
If the unit arrives you now immediately roll for table edge.
Now you may decide to split the unit into combat squads because it is now being deployed.
Deploy first one squad from the table edge the unit rolled and move it onto the table, continue with the other squad.

I changed my mind about this because of the wording and the difference between arriving and deploying. However, it does seem to make the process unnecessarily more difficult.

ruffian4 wrote:Tbh, I find a lot of this type of argument to seem increasingly difficult, as it seems a technicality that may not intended (see shrike) and only makes sense by accident.

Am I getting jaded??? :wink:


If you are sir, then so am I! 8)
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Re: Ohh pants.. need a ruffian, "Deployment"

Postby ruffian4 » Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:10 pm

timewizard wrote:
Okay Ruffian, I just spent some time in the 'reading room' where I (among other things :mrgreen: ) read, re-read and the read again pages 94 and 95

8O
Eeek! When you have to go, you have to go ... 8O

timewizard wrote:
and I have to (grudgingly) admit that you may have something here.

Three eyes are better than two, they say. :D

:cry:
I understand the grudgingly bit entirely, though, as I think this is the RAW, but, I find myself justifying it with raifluff (new word???).

Ie, the unit outflanks and must outflank together as that is their orbat, they are tied in a predetermined strategic way.
However, upon contact with the enemy (in our terms, deployment), the squads are freed up in a tactical sense.

That's fine, I think it works well.
Of course, the technicality of reserves denies future tactical flexibility if the unit is transported as a strategic option, which is nonsense, really. The strategic option should still be there to allow combat squading.

So, it seems something that if we were to play, I would have no problems with.
But, RAW demands the point to be clear (if it has been so far).

Somehow, I think we could find arguments for the internet all day, but I don't think we would have a problem during a game. :D
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Re: Ohh pants.. need a ruffian, "Deployment"

Postby timewizard » Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:00 pm

ruffian4 wrote: That's fine, I think it works well.
Of course, the technicality of reserves denies future tactical flexibility if the unit is transported as a strategic option, which is nonsense, really. The strategic option should still be there to allow combat squading.

Agreed, but think of it as similar to the rule for combat squadding from a drop pod. The unit can split into combat squads, but only after the pod has landed. So the unit deploys as one, landing in the same location, they can they split into squads and move off from there.
Same for outflanking, they move on from the same side of the battlefield and can then split off and move and fight separately from there.

ruffian4 wrote:So, it seems something that if we were to play, I would have no problems with.
But, RAW demands the point to be clear (if it has been so far).

Yes, I also like to have the rules as clear as possible before the game starts. Akin to deciding on terrain features before the game. Makes it clear what counts as what. The shame of the rulebook is that so much is devoted to fluff and showing off the 'eavy metal team's minis, and so little devoted to certain aspects of rules. For example, the entire deployment section (or rather the little bits scattered about) are inadequate at best, but could be cleared up considerably with only about 2 or 3 additional paragraphs. Too much is left open to interpretation.

ruffian4 wrote:Somehow, I think we could find arguments for the internet all day, but I don't think we would have a problem during a game. :D

Absolutely! We would save our debates for after the game over a pint or two! And I hope that some day we get to find that out! :mrgreen:
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